Matt N

On the topic of Sub-Terra, I think this video that Alton Towers themselves posted is an interesting watch that could potentially be hinting towards a Sub-Terra return of some sort: I know it talks about Nemesis, but the bits about “new head of the Phalanx John Dalton” and “reports of inside corruption” definitely seem like they could be hinting towards some sort of new storyline and rebirth for what was Sub-Terra. I also found the “there’s more to this story than meets the eye” intriguing… What do you guys reckon?

There are suggestions from Chessington Buzz that we may also hear something about Scorpion Express/Mexicana at the consultation, and that Scorpion Express could be on the chopping block to prepare for whatever is announced at the consultation: If it is being removed, then it would appear that I owe @Theme Park Fanatic an apology... they've been banging that drum for months, perhaps even years, but I myself genuinely thought it was likely to return. I sincerely apologise for not giving your idea more consideration.

That's my theory... it would be backed up further by the fact that they've blocked off paths near to Sub Terra with "Danger: Hazardous Materials" signs, as per Skyscraper on TowersStreet: Source: https://towersstreet.com/talk/threads/nemesis-general-discussion.5260/page-101#post-386326 To me, that possibly drops the strongest hint yet that something is likely to be happening with Sub-Terra for next year... EDIT: False alarm... apparently it was just someone reusing a construction picture from 2011.

This is very exciting, in my view! An indoor waterpark is not an insignificant investment, and given that there are currently slim pickings waterpark-wise in the South East, I'd argue that it's also quite a shrewd one from a business perspective. As I said, there are few waterparks in the area, and the indoor factor will also give Chessington a second gate attraction with good year-round and all-weather appeal. Furthermore, a waterpark would considerably bolster Chessington's credentials as a family short break resort. It could have a lot of potential in this area given the considerable population in its immediate catchment area and lack of nearby competition! (While LLW has nice-looking hotels, it doesn't really have any second gate activities as such, and none of the other parks in the South East have an overly substantial, if any, accommodation and resort offering for families) I should also note that Jared, the administrator on Chessington Buzz (who first dropped hints about an indoor waterpark a few months back), has suggested that there may be multiple attractions discussed in this consultation rather than just the one individual attraction, so the park itself may well see an additional investment to supplement this as well. Take that with as much salt as you like, but given CB's excellent track record for accurate rumours, I trust Jared implicitly.

One thing I would say to you is that “modernisation” might not necessarily be a bad thing, in my view. Modern technologies available nowadays can pull off all kinds of things that were never possible for the original 1992 ride, and having things like screens and projection mapping integrated into a ride in moderation can definitely enhance it, in my view. I know that “screens” are seen as the ultimate evil by many dark ride fans, but I believe that when implemented well, screens as well as technology like projection mapping can really enhance a dark ride. I am a firm believer in everything being good in moderation, and that extends to screens and multimedia in dark rides. Many brilliant dark rides integrate screens and multimedia heavily, but they don’t rely solely upon them; they marry them with plenty of physical scenery, and it works really well to provide a good, rounded dark ride experience that’s modern, yet has lots of attention to detail and charm. I agree that it would be a bit of a waste if absolutely every scene was replaced with a screen and nothing else. But I feel that having some screens and projection mapping integrated in with new, more advanced animatronics and plenty of physical scenery could elevate the ride onto another level and make it a modern, rounded experience while still maintaining its original overarching concept and the things that made it great.

I think you might be onto something there; a now deleted comment on AS' Facebook post from an Attraction Source admin said that "those familiar with the situation say that it is replacing an existing attraction", for what it's worth. Take that with as much salt as you like, but I trust that anyone associated with Attraction Source is likely to be a fairly reliable source (AS is connected with a number of parks in a semi-official capacity), and I also find the fact that this comment was later deleted rather telling... could this person possibly have told a little too much about the truth of what's happening?

Hi guys. I have very exciting news for you all this afternoon! According to Attraction Source, Chessington is holding a public exhibition showing off a “new attraction” on Wednesday 16th November: https://www.facebook.com/213894828494/posts/pfbid0298cGVxYnMfoovWQpQqqzfcgNkxuW9Scqmez8dJMMRmGj1QR8X29epFeWzG3AXCdjl/ Little else is known other than that, but details will apparently be revealed on the 16th, and there will be a public consultation period running until the 30th. Isn’t this exciting? I wonder what it could be; I’ll admit that I wasn’t expecting another major investment at Chessington so soon after Jumanji, but I guess it would make sense seeing as I’ve heard reports of Chessington receiving £60m of CAPEX between 2022 and 2026…

I must admit, I also had this thought. It wouldn’t be outside the realms of possibility for Towers to market a new attraction using a scare maze, and the theme of The Invitation, from what I’ve heard, also sounds as though it might fit a haunted house-style ride…

Hi guys. Queues are a fact of life at theme parks; the attractions only have a finite throughput, and demand can often outstrip supply at a given moment. Therefore, queues formed on a first-come-first-served basis are a necessity to ensure order within theme parks and to ensure that everyone is treated fairly when trying to experience an attraction. One increasing school of thought within the theme park industry is to incorporate virtual queueing instead of a physical queue, where guests can go off and do other things, such as eating, drinking, shopping and watching shows, whilst “queueing” for an attraction. Many theme parks have incorporated this principle into queue jumping options like Fastrack/FastPass/FastLane, as well as into disabled accessible alternative queueing methods such as the Ride Access Pass. A smaller number of theme parks and attractions, however, have gone past this, and attempted to go completely queue-less, embracing wholesale virtual queueing as the norm. This idea gained considerable traction in a number of parks following the COVID-19 pandemic, and even before COVID, the idea of queue-less theme parks and attractions did start to enter the conversation. With us living in a digital age, virtual queueing is arguably easier to facilitate than ever, and it could be argued as a way to make queueing more accessible and fairer. With this in mind, I’d be keen to know; what are your thoughts on wholesale virtual queueing for all, and the idea of the “queue-less” theme park? Do you think that universal virtual queueing is the long-term solution to parks’ queueing woes, and the future of theme parks? Or do you think that it’s a passing trend, and merely a short-term fix rather than a true long-term solution? Personally, I’m a little bit torn, but I am somewhat sceptical about the prospect of a queue-less theme park. On the one hand, I can definitely see the benefits of going queue-less all round. If implemented well, a queue-less theme park could drive up guest feedback by making waits seem shorter than they actually are; psychologists have proven that people perceive waits to be shorter and are happier when they are occupied, which a virtual queue is certainly better suited to facilitate than a physical queue. It could also drive up spend per capita by encouraging guests to spend in food outlets and shops during their virtual wait rather than forcing them into physical queues where they can’t spend any money. Furthermore, it would make queueing more accessible and fairer; if nobody queues physically, then that negates the need for alternative queueing provisions such as Ride Access Pass, which is a win-win because disabled guests don’t have to apply for anything and the park don’t have to spend administrative costs implementing it. Wholesale virtual queueing would solve the perceived RAP implementation issues that some parks are currently facing because if no one queues physically, then RAP isn’t really needed in the first place. On the other hand, however, I have my doubts about the viability of an entirely queue-less theme park as a long-term solution. This is due to various real-world attempts at going entirely queue-less. From what I can gather about past attempts at wholesale virtual queueing for all, the concept of the “queue-less” theme park and universal virtual queueing is an idea that sounds terrific on paper, but doesn’t really work in practice, particularly in theme parks not originally designed for virtual queueing. For example, Thorpe Park’s brief experiment with Reserve’n’Ride a few years back did not go particularly well, from what I gather, and was very quickly reversed. I’ve also heard that Walibi Holland’s attempt at a queue-less theme park during the height of COVID was not very well received. On an individual attraction level, Disney’s “boarding pass” virtual queuing system, used on its recent new attractions such as Rise of the Resistance, has generated considerable controversy. Even Universal’s Volcano Bay, a water park designed with universal virtual queueing in mind, has had considerable teething problems with the implementation of a “queue-less” park, from what I can tell. Overall, I don’t deny that virtual queueing has its merits as an idea, and in fairness, I’m sure that it could work if a park was properly designed with it in mind and some radical ideas to spread crowds were implemented. However, I am overall sceptical about it as a long term solution simply because if you’re going to take people out of queues, you need to find somewhere else to put them. That is easier said than done, particularly in theme parks not designed with wholesale virtual queueing in mind. But what are your thoughts on wholesale virtual queueing for all, and the concept of the queue-less theme park? I’d be really keen to know your thoughts!

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but Oakwood was evacuated at 1pm today due to a “serious” (as per a BBC Wales source) incident on Treetops. The incident happened this afternoon, the air ambulance were called, and one person has been taken to hospital. The HSE have already started an investigation. There are eyewitness reports saying that someone was “ejected” from the ride, but these should be taken with a pinch of salt as there has been no official confirmation. Live updates can be found here: https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/live-updates-air-ambulance-called-25335338?utm_source=wales_online_newsletter&utm_campaign=breaking_daily_newsletter2&utm_medium=email&pure360.trackingid={~TrackingId~} My thoughts go out to those affected.

Interlink could well have a different standard of H&S/maintenance to Merlin's internal standard. I can understand Merlin's skepticism around second hand rides from outside the group, particularly post-Smiler. I'm sure they're perfectly safe, but it probably isn't worth the risk. One thing I'd say with regard to your Smiler vs Monkey Swinger comparison is that correlation does not necessarily equal causation. By that, I mean that just because Smiler has had more incidents than Monkey Swinger, that does not mean that all new rides have more incidents than all second hand rides. Surely a new ride would be more heavily tested than a second hand one, no? Surely the manufacturer will have manufactured and tested every element of it with perfect precision, and as it's brand new, the components will have no wear and tear (unlike those of a second hand ride), which in theory decreases the chance of an accident or malfunction? Sorry, moderators... I'm conscious of the fact that I'm going off on a bit of a tangent here.

One thing I'd say there is that all of the examples you cite were purchased under Tussauds, whereas the parks now are owned by Merlin. Even though the firms are similar, they will differ in many ways, and I'd wager that this policy is one of those ways. As for when the policy was implemented, I'm not 100% sure. I'm not even 100% sure that it's a policy, but I definitely seem to remember someone in the know saying it once. I think they said it had something to do with the Smiler incident and wanting to be 100% sure that all rides met the corporate safety and maintenance standard or something like that (they wouldn't have been 100% sure with a second hand ride bought from outside the group), if I'm remembering correctly.

Personally, I’d be surprised if an Enterprise replacement opened in 2023. Its removal almost definitely wasn’t pre-planned, by the looks of things, so I’d be surprised if they’ve strategised a replacement for it already. If there was to be a significant flat ride addition, surely we’d also have seen planning permission being sought by now? I do acknowledge that the markings exist, and that Alton Towers now has a number of gaps in its flat ride lineup (which will be exacerbated significantly by the eventual demise of the RetroSquad), but I personally feel that Enterprise is more likely to be replaced in a future year. I’ve heard rumblings that £3-5m is being spent on Duel’s revamp alone, and even if whatever happens to Sub-Terra costs less than £1m (which, in all fairness, is likely), that still adds up to an overall spend of the best part of £5m, if not exceeding £5m, which is not an insignificant sum for a non-major year. Although given that CBeebies cost £9m back in 2014, a non-major year that directly followed the £18m addition of Smiler, I guess it wouldn’t be at all inconceivable for an Enterprise replacement to be budgeted for as well, particularly given that 2021 and 2022 both saw pretty minimal amounts of new CAPEX (TWODW was technically “invested in” for 2020, so there was no new CAPEX in 2021). Nonetheless, I do feel that Enterprise’s replacement is more likely to be built in a future year than next year, personally, particularly seeing as its demise appears to have been quite sudden rather than a pre-planned occurrence. I’d also be very surprised if it was a second hand ride. Don’t quote me on this, but I seem to remember hearing that Merlin has a corporate policy expressly forbidding their parks from purchasing second hand rides that don’t come from within the group, which would rule out the addition of any recently defunct flat ride heavyweights from elsewhere. Even putting that point aside; Apocalypse in particular is 177ft tall, so would require an almighty pit likely passing the point of financial viability to even fit within planning regulations at Alton Towers.

It didn’t, actually; Vampire came 4 years before Nemesis, so it was indeed the UK’s first suspended rollercoaster.

Anything could happen, obviously, but am I the only one who’s a bit sceptical about this whole Emily Alton theory? Personally, I wonder if Emily Alton would be an overly niche reference for most guests. Remember, she isn’t a major part of the ride and never has been; she is literally just a fleeting gag in the indoor queue line that some guests might catch a glimpse of for a second or two. For that reason, I’m not sure about the prospect of a ride centred around Emily Alton. Most non-enthusiasts (and probably a fair percentage of enthusiasts) probably won’t know who Emily Alton is, and given how small her appearance within the HH/Duel was, it seems like an overly niche thing to focus on to me. It absolutely could happen, but I’m not sure that I see it as the most likely option. Some storyline or narrative applied to the ride would be nice, but I’ll admit that I think an Emily Alton-centred ride would go over most guests’ heads given her fairly limited role in the previous iterations of the ride.

That I don’t know. I’d like to think that profiling changes wouldn’t matter so much, but if they changed any of the layout, then I think it would.

Interestingly, queue-times.com, a website that monitors live queue data from Chessington and has done for many years, actually indicates that Dragon’s Fury has the park’s longest average queue time, averaging 44 minutes on a regular day and 63 minutes on a peak day: https://queue-times.com/parks/3/stats Admittedly, Vampire comes in a close second, averaging 42 minutes on a regular day and 62 minutes on a peak day, but that’s hardly the landslide win for Vampire that’s being implied. Assuming both have similar throughputs to one another (and many reports would imply that they do, in recent times at least), then this data would suggest that Dragon’s Fury has just as much right to the mantle of “flagship attraction at Chessington” as Vampire does, if not more. I also personally disagree that Vampire is “more iconic” than Nemesis at Alton Towers. I was not alive when Nemesis opened, but I’m led to believe that Nemesis had an outstanding nationwide marketing campaign that made sure that literally everyone knew about it, and it cannot be denied that Nemesis saw Alton Towers’ attendance skyrocket to levels never seen before or since (1994 was by far the park’s highest ever year, with Merlin’s graph showing that a figure of around 3.3 million was attained, and the only time that the park has even exceeded 3 million since was in 2010), so I’d argue that Nemesis “made” Alton Towers just as much as Vampire “made” Chessington if not more. Not to mention that it’s a world renowned roller coaster at the UK’s most popular theme park; millions of people have ridden it, and millions of people still revere it; you only have to look at the ruckus caused in the days since its “closure” was announced. Even down here in the South West, a great many people I know heard about the Nemesis closure announcement and expressed sadness. Would Vampire closing stir the same kind of reaction? I’m not so sure; it may have been brilliant for Chessington back in the day, but I simply don’t think that it’s a countrywide coaster icon in quite the same way as Nemesis. Admittedly, though, how “iconic” a ride is is very subjective and incredibly hard to measure.

I apologise… I was under the impression that Around The World in 80 Days was a lot more similar to It’s a Small World than it clearly was. Out of interest, what Doom & Son’s elements are there within Duel? I was under the impression that The Haunted House was entirely brand new and bespoke for the park, so I must admit that it surprises me to hear of Doom & Son’s elements being reused within it.

I’m not sure about Around the World in 80 Days, but I know that there is a wall from Doom & Sons, which also previously occupied part of the building, left in the Alton Towers Dungeon. As for how it would have aged; I agree that it might not have aged brilliantly had it lasted beyond 1993, but I guess it is basically an Alton Towers version of It’s a Small World, and that ride is still entertaining riders at various Disney parks over 50 years on from its inception.

Danny on TowersStreet Talk has made an interesting discovery within Zierer's IAAPA product magazine that arguably drops a heavy hint towards Legoland's new coaster being a Zierer family shuttle rather than a Vekoma Family Boomerang, and also provides an insight into a potential theme for the new ride: I don't know about any of you, but that "Dueling Reverse Coaster" looks exactly like Legoland's proposed layout to me, and the cops and robbers type trains in the left image could possibly hint towards a Lego City theme, in my view. That would certainly suit both Lego and a duelling roller coaster, so would work well, in my view. P.S. Here's Danny's TowersStreet post: https://towersstreet.com/talk/threads/legoland-windsor.67/page-77#post-382844

Ooh, I'd love a good bit of Pepper's Ghost; I think that it's a terrific effect, and it would work so well on a haunted house ride, in my view! I'd also really like to see some projection mapping in there too; I think this can really enhance a ride when it's well used!

I don't think it does, no. I seem to remember it being removed when Merlin introduced the cheap season passes in 2018, and I never remember it being revived.

I reckon that if Vampire's trains were to be replaced with anything, it would be the Vekoma SFC-style trains with overhead lap bars. They're easy to source, and they're also brilliantly comfortable; I feel that they would be a huge improvement on the current rolling stock! Personally, I'd actually remove Vampire rather than retrack it. I don't think it's as iconic as something like Nemesis, and I have high faith that Merlin could replace it with something superior (perhaps not directly, what with the council's issues with that site, but I certainly think that they could provide it with a far superior spiritual successor). Admittedly, I only rode it once back in 2014, but I controversially wasn't a huge fan of it; I remember it being surprisingly rough, and having numerous dead spots in its layout. That was admittedly based on one ride a very long time ago, however; I should probably get back on it and make a fairer judgement.

It's a tough one; I think they're stuck between a rock and a hard place with Vampire, really. It's an old ride built by a defunct manufacturer with parts that are likely hard to source replacements for, but at the same time, Kingston Borough Council have made it very clear that they will not allow Vampire to be replaced by something on the same scale. Personally, I'm not sure if I see it getting retracked. It's certainly possible, particularly seeing as bespoke retrack jobs are becoming easier than ever with the likes of Taziker (who are gradually retracking The Big One at Blackpool Pleasure Beach) entering the market, but I'm not sure that Vampire is quite as iconic as Nemesis was, and there are other things working against it compared to Nemesis. Nemesis remains world-renowned 28 years on from its opening, is located at the UK's most popular theme park, and is an example of a ride type from an operating manufacturer that's still being actively produced. With Nemesis being located in a bespokely made pit, it would also be a herculean task to replace it with, well, anything. With Vampire, on the other hand; while it was the ride that made Chessington back in 1990, I'm not sure that it has quite that same iconic reputation as Nemesis. While unique, it's not world renowned in the same way, and arguably not iconic in the same sense either. Also, while the council have said that Vampire couldn't be replaced with something on the same scale, they could replace it with something quite easily and build it a spiritual successor of sorts elsewhere in the park. Not to mention that with Arrow now out of business, getting new parts for it would be easier said than done. I think it could happen, but I'm not so sure that it will because I think that numerous things work against that possibility for Vampire compared to Nemesis.

Indeed they did, but that contended with both a shorter timescale (Duel closed in September, while the TLC revamp happened only over the closed season) and likely a vastly lower budget (likely in the low six-figure territory, if not lower). For what it's worth, people "in the know" over on TowersStreet have pegged the budget for this at £3-5m. As a point of comparison, the Duel revamp allegedly cost no more than £1m in 2003 money (likely less), which equates to ~£1.6m in today's money (I checked on the BoE inflation calculator), so this project is likely to cost at least twice what the Duel revamp did back in 2003 even when adjusting for inflation, and that's even assuming that Duel hit the full £1m in the first place (which from what I've heard, it likely didn't). For some idea, that small budget went a surprisingly long way in the 2003 Duel revamp; they demolished a not insignificant portion of the Haunted House and replaced it with an entirely new scene, they revamped the existing Haunted House scenes, they changed the lighting, and they added a brand new interactive laser gun system as well. Given what some are suggesting Merlin will do with the alleged budget of this project, the much smaller budget of Duel went a pretty long way, and that makes me very optimistic for this project! I am really excited to see what they do with it! 6 months and an alleged £3-5m budget could go a long way, particularly given that this is unlikely to have the IP costs of a typical Merlin retheme to contend with!