Matt N

On a slightly different note, here's an excellent visual from Jack SIlkstone showing just how Project Exodus looks in context within the Thorpe skyline:
 
 
It really dwarfs Saw in particular here!
 

Here's the official news: https://www.efteling.com/nl/blog/nieuws/20220124-nieuw-hotel-en-vernieuwd-themagebied-in-2024
 
So we'll get a new attraction opening in 2024, with a throughput of 1250pph, as well as some sort of 'theme world', which makes me think this investment might see more than just the attraction. No news on what the attraction is yet, and I'm still a little hesitant to refer to it as a ride just yet. The park will spend 25 million euros on this new investment (for comparison, Symbolica was 35 million)
 
The park will also open a new hotel in 2024, next to the main entrance, so that it will overlook Aquanura (the water show) and the Fairytale Forest. It will have 7 floors, 143 rooms, 2 restaurants and a spa, and represents a 50 million euro investment. For comparison, the most recent hotel offering (Loonsche Land) cost 30 million euros, and the previous (Bosrijk village) cost 52 million euros, but both of those have pretty substantial outdoor bits too, which seems less like with this hotel.

Almost full track replacement, with only the original lift hill, station and brake run track to be retained

Makes sense for this to be a complete rebuild. A lot of parks do this for older attractions and Nemesis hasn't lost any of its popularity over the years.

Interestingly, Alton Towers have today submitted a planning application "seeking to confirm the lawfulness of maintenance works to the "Nemesis" ride, an existing roller coaster at Alton Towers Resort", according to TowersTimes:
https://www.facebook.com/towerstimes/posts/10159970979863185
Could this be for, or at least relating to, the heavily rumoured Nemesis retrack? And if it is, could it be for the ride's upcoming 30th anniversary in 2024, perhaps?

Whilst Phantasialand has some outstanding attractions and areas (Taron, Chiapas and likely Fly/Rookburgh) I simply cannot place it above Europa Park. The park is tiny, always feels congested and just doesn't have enough to do as a resort. I'd say this park is fairly overhyped by many enthusiasts. Don't get me wrong it is great still and I'd continue to visit every few years, but if I had a choice of where to go out of Phantasialand and Europa, I'd pick Europa. 
 
Europa Park is a complete resort and has such a variety of things to do and whilst the Coasters may not be as good as the likes of Taron they are still incredibly good fun with the likes of Wodan, Silver Star, Blue Fire etc. The fact you can find something new in every corner and can just feel relaxed walking around or hopping on a transport ride (or 3)for hours on end makes it far superior. Then there's the other aspects of the resort from the incredible Rulantica, hotels to explore and Silver Lake Saloon 

Phantasialand
 
Yes it has less rides and a smaller park, but as I have said before.....
 
Taron and Mamba are better than ANY Europa coaster, Chiapas and River Quest are better than ANY Europa water ride and I always think Maus is better than most the dark rides at Europa.
 
Quality over quantity. Europa has some good coasters but doesnt have any that stand out to the point of making me wanna rush back. I was booking flights straight back to Phantasia after Taron. No Europa coaster has that effect on me. I would also appreciate its dark ride collection so much more was it not full to the brim of Disney knock offs.
 
Both are top parks, for me however it goes to Phantasia.

Nash is rougher than Smiler but they're both generally rough coasters.
 
Both for very different reasons. Nash is down to being butchered and Smiler is bad design.
 
Nash was never "smooth" but it never tried to assault you either. Then Kumbak did their usual ruination.

I guess I haven't worked it particularly well. But here's the thing, I've had two rides on Grand National and they were not at all 'rough'. From my experience, I genuinely cannot see why people would call it rough, for example. Perhaps I was just lucky.
 
Could say something similar for my first ride on Goudrix. It was great, if a little intense. But nowhere near as rough or uncomfortable as people described. So again, from my experience, I genuinely could not see where the hate comes from. 
That was until my second ride, where I had a complete opposite experience.
 
I can only go off my experiences. Me saying "I don't get the hate" for a ride isn't to invalidate the experiences of others. Obviously people do hate it and have their reasons, and some ride it incredibly rough. Fair enough. But simply, my (limited) experience doesn't help me understand why people do hate it as much as they do.

Out of interest, have we heard anything new about the new coaster as of late? Is it testing or anything yet?
 
I find it really interesting how much it's flown under the radar given its significance; yes, it's a Colossus clone, but it's the tallest coaster built in the UK since Swarm 10 years ago, as well as the biggest ride at Flamingo Land (I think?), so it's pretty significant for the UK coaster scene in that regard!
 
On a side note, Flamingo Land is going to have a pretty epic coaster collection by the time this opens... they're going to be joint with Towers & Blackpool for most coasters in the UK according to RCDB, and they're going to have 5 thrill coasters! That's nothing to be sniffed at, in my view... it must surely put them in contention for having one of the strongest coaster lineups in Britain, possibly even one of the strongest in Europe?

Kind of why I find topics like this funny. In one breathe you say Grand National, not rough, can't understand why anyone would see it as rough and then the next breath, Smiler is unridable. 
 
I think the complete opposite.
 
Roughness is such a personal thing and I wouldn't personally say I couldn't understand why some would find a ride rough when quite clearly, some people do. 

Goudrix was literally 50-50 for me. One ride was smooth and enjoyable, the other was nightmarish. First ride was in the front of a car, the second in the back of a car, but I would refuse to believe that that was the sole reason for such wildly different experiences.
 
 
 
As for rides a like more than others:
Grand National - Not rough at all, don't get the hate.
Lost Gravity - This is genuinely absolutely fab.
The Swarm - Has a special place in my heart
 
And rides I like less than most:
The Smiler - Horrid painful ride, won't ride it again.
Olympia Looping - In the context of being a travelling coaster, it's a spectacle. But the ride is not enjoyable.
 

Hello my name is Benin and I actually like Goudrix.
 
Beyond the Papillon de Triste, the reputation seems to be... strange? The last visit Zeus was running far worse than Goudrix was, which presumably explains why that's getting a revamp.
 
It's also a very photogenic coaster. But I just feel its not only a ride that has garnered an unfair reputation but it's actually fun to ride as well.
 
 
Icon is ok, just not Helix. I'll also mention EGF, because beyond the first drop (a common Intamin issue) its just meh. The restraints are also awful and Goliath at Walibi Holland is a much better ride.

Kumali just about sneaks into the good category probably based upon the fact its not the worst SLC in existence. 
 
Everything else is meh to awful. The park itself isn't particularly charming and the operations make Thorpe look like Europa.
 
The new coaster should be good. If it ever opens. But it'll be on 1 train and run awfully.
 
The zoo is good though. I'll give them that.

The planning application did state that it would be repainted grey, so one would imagine that has to be done before they can get on with testing. I don't know the ins and outs, but I would imagine that since it is specified in the plans, they would have to get that painted sooner rather than later.
 
The park was hit incredibly hard by Covid, running a reduced line up and with bare bones staff levels. It shouldn't be forgotten that they have the zoo side of their function too, which would have received very little support, and where all their money was focused on.
 
I personally still think 2022 is optimistic for it to open the rate it's going.
 
 
Simply put, no.
 
Quantity does not mean quality, and the park's quality is pretty low. Looking at those 5 thrill rides...
Kumali: Pretty good invert
Mumbo Jumbo: Average
Hero: Atrocious.
Velocity: Fine family coaster
10 looper: Let's assume we can stick that in the 'pretty good' to 'great' category.
 
Obviously this is a tainted viewpoint from an enthusiast, but even to a wider audience, that's going to be the general consensus. You can easily argue that Thorpe, Towers, Blackpool and Fantasy Island have stronger coaster line ups in terms of quality. Heck, come next year, you could possibly throw Chessington into that conversation too.
 
Don't get me wrong, it's good to have a big and varied line up, and Flamingo have one of the widest in the UK I'd say, especially since there's something for everyone. But they're nowhere near the conversation of have the strongest UK line up

Coasters I like more than most:
Kingda Ka
Was a massive surprise to me and was my favourite ride at the park when I went there in 2016. It’s still currently at my number 2 spot, though my number 1 I haven’t ridden since 2014 and isn’t nearly as fresh in my memory so this is kinda my number 1 coaster in a way. It’s definitely the most impactful coaster I’ve ridden!
 
The Big One
Specifically in the 2nd and 3rd to back row (elsewhere I think it’s kinda ok). It just feels like it’s speeding like crazy around the course in those seats. And the long ride time with this speed is just amazing! I’ve said it before on this forum but in those seats, it’s my favourite coaster in the UK.

Spinball Whizzer
This ride just brings me so much joy! It takes its elements with some pretty good speed and is pretty intense, more intense than many “thrill” coasters I’ve ridden. it’s also got a nice upbeat theme which is nice for a change when every other major coaster has a darker theme. Weirdly I rank this fairly high up amongst the coasters at Towers, honestly I’d probably take it over Th13teen, Rita, Oblivion and Galactica.
 
Coasters I like less than most:
Nemesis Inferno
This ride is kinda a hit or miss with me. Some days I’ll get a highly forceful old school B&M invert experience, other days it just feels a tad forceless and on those specific rides (which is probably about 50% of the time) it feels the weakest out of the 5 coasters to me. But I don’t hate the ride, far from it, I still try and ride it every time I go! I do love giving it the nickname Nemesis Inferior though 😆
 
Nemesis
Yeah I know, another Nemesis on this list. Now I do think it is an amazing ride and I’ve enjoyed every ride I’ve had on it and unlike Nemesis Inferno, it’s always a hit. I just simply don’t quite like it as much as many other enthusiasts but I do appreciate and respect the ride massively.
 
Kumba
I found this ride fairly rough when I rode it in 2016, though the only 3 times I rode it were all in the back so that probably affects my opinion drastically. But even looking past that, it felt like any other B&M sit-down I’ve ridden. I thought Kraken was far superior in many ways.

Just to reply to the two above me, Grand National is nerfed by those awful Kumbak trains. The layout with the old trains was absolutely fine but I cannot stand the trains. They make the thing unrideable. Age has nothing to do with it, 100 year old Rutschebanan at Tivoli is incredibly smooth and enjoyable. 
 
As for mine
 
Like
 
Scream and Medusa Both are these are fantastic B&M floorless coasters that don't get near enough credit for being fantastically paced, intense and exciting rides. Scream gets more abuse but frankly they are both car park coasters. But this is Six Flags, not Galaxys Edge and these are both excellent rides. 
 
Gatekeeper I loved this ride, it really does the wing rider justice with huge inversions, air time and great near misses. For me, its personally flawless
 
Schwur des Karnen One of the most terrifying rides I've ever been on. I don't know how Gerstlauer came up with this but its off the chart.
 
Dislike
 
Top Thrill Dragster Awful ride. Not worth the queue, no matter how fast or exciting the ride is. You could ride Raptor 30 times in the time it takes on TTD and you'd have a much more exhilarating time doing so. The dread from rollbacks made the queuing experience awful.
 
Leviathan A 300 foot B&m should be so much more then what this is. But it's just disappointing frankly. It feels way too short and compared to Behemoth in the same park, is so much less interesting. You can tell they learned their lessons from this when they built Fury 325.
 
Expedition Ge Force This is my automatic go to when I think of a ride with a mighty reputation that did nothing for me. It meanders around doing nothing in particular for me to rate it particularly highly and I actually think Goliath at Walibi Holland is a far better ride. 
 
Cheetah Hunt This thing is actual garbage. It doesn't do anything well for me, another ride that just goes on and on and not doing anything particularly well. 
 
The Big One Boring, dull, meandering, pointless shallow drops that don't do anything whatsoever. We could have had a British MagnumXL, we got a 200 foot big apple. 

That's the key here. If the park is doing well, and better than expected even, with this new market and direction, they may as well continue with it. 
 
To me, it's a nail in the coffin of T'Ultimate, which is already something that's going to be costly to re-open, and against the park's current direction. Just wish the park would confirm it at this point.
 
But obviously good to see any park performing well, especially at this time.

Promisingly, Lightwater Valley was singled out by Brighton Pier Group as having performed “ahead of expectations” in 2021: https://riderater.co.uk/9522/lightwater-valley-ahead-of-expectations/

No specific figures were given, but the group singled out Lightwater Valley as a star performer in their recent results reveal, where the group also revealed that their total sales were expected to be £22.7million, which is up by 177% on the same period in 2020 and even up 31% compared to pre-COVID levels in 2019.

Promising stuff, no? While it may not be the future that some desire, I do think Lightwater could have a promising future ahead of it within the next few years as they forge their new path of appealing to the under-10s!

Pleasure Beach are doing a lot of good at the moment.  There is a lot to look forward to this year;
 
Valhalla 2.0.  Yes, it's taking ages, but it needed doing - back in 2019 it was so poor, I commented at the time that it would be better off closed than open in that state.  So, the fact they are finally doing something with it is very exciting.  
Grand National - I have seen photos over the last few days, and it seems to be getting the Big Dipper treatment (a complete re-track in places) which is excellent.  Station is also getting work as we saw at the end of last year.  
Big One - every year for the last 3 years they have re-tracked significant amounts of it with brand new specially manufactured track, this can't be cheap to do and it's great to see it being looked after so well.  
Going back to last year, they did;
 
Big Dipper - first drop re-track and work on the turnaround by Big Blue made a huge difference.  
River Caves & Alice – significant lighting and scenic presentation improvements.  
Steeplechase – brand new sign in the original style.  
Avalanche bears completely refurbished and full soundtrack restored.  
Mr Funshine back on the arches, a more vibrant brand image, 125 anniversary effort made across the park.  
The year before we had an upgrade to some Ghost Train scenes, etc.
 
They are investing a lot into improving/sustaining what they have, much better than they were 4 years ago in my view.  It's just unfortunate that the benefits of this year's investment & changes won't be felt by those paying £39 in February.  As season pass-holders we can be patient, but it's a different outlook for 'once a year' guests.
 
I think the biggest annoyance for me (as a season pass holder) this year is potentially having to wait until summer for Valhalla.  It's adding another half a year on top of the two we have already waited - but if it's worth the wait in the end, then fair enough.
 
To conclude though, I do feel that PB are making much better long-term decisions for their existing rides now than they were in 2018/19.  And that's great.

Some new concept art has emerged of a very Joris En De Draak looking dueling woodie.

 

Now here's something out of no where: Legoland have shared a glimpse into the future, stating their intent to apply for plans for an adventure golf course, with a "new roller coaster investment" on the horizon too: https://www.windsorobserver.co.uk/news/19849032.legoland-windsor-plans-build-new-adventure-golf-course/
 
 
They're citing the potential threat of London Resort a reason for these investments:
 
 
An adventure golf course will certainly add to the park and resort in a worthwhile way. I honestly think that more and more resort parks should have adventure gold courses - compared to most theme park attractions, even a good quality one is only a comparatively small investment. They are low cost in maintenance, cheap to operate in terms of staffing and you can justifiably upcharge for it.
Plus, I think a Lego-themed mini golf just sounds like a great idea.

The "new coaster investment" is interesting. I've heard rumblings of a B&M going to Windsor. Personally, I think that's just rumours coming from people seeing the Legolands in China and putting 2 and 2 together to get 5. And I would have laughed the idea out the window a year ago. But with Chessington getting a B&M, and obviously multiple B&Ms in the Chinese Legoland parks looking likely, it's not the craziest suggestion right now.

Legoland Windsor has many planning obstacles, and they're low on usable space. Even with the focus on the younger market, they do need another family coaster imo. Their recent dark ride additions have been very 'for all the family' orientated, so having a new coaster catering for that market isn't out of the question. But yeah, will be very interesting to see what they do.


I do wonder if there have been an internal shift in philosophy about the likelihood of London Resort, given it's been quoted as a need for investment multiple times. Again, my opinion would be that they're still not worried about it, and still pretty sceptical that it will ever open, but there's certainly no harm in them playing off it to push through new investments.

Out of all the UK Merlin parks, Legoland has seen some of the most consistent and well thought-out additions over the last 7-10 years really, so this isn't anything new. But it's good it continue under the changes at the top of Merlin (even if it's not a surprise!).

I think mine are quite similar to @Martin Doyle
 
Roller coasters I like more than most
 
The Big One - Obvious first choice is obvious.  It has mixed opinions across enthusiasts, I've been told so many times that I "shouldn't" like it, but after hundreds of rides on it I'm still buzzing and grinning from ear to ear when it hits the brake run.
 
I adore this coaster because it has so much character.  Everything about it from the sound of the lift hill, the raucous nature of it, the 'unconventional' transitions, the way it slams you about, it's just incredible.
 
The first drop is still the best first drop I have ever ridden and I love the rest of the layout because it whizzes along at height and slams you into the turns, dips, banked hill crests, and I love the dives under its own and other ride's structures.  Going over the hill behind Skyforce then diving under Big Dipper and being slammed out of your seat into the MCBR is one of my favourite compilation of elements of any coaster.
 
Also - for better or for worse, the experience changes so much depending on the weather.  In 2021 it seemed to run better than ever, to the point where on a late night riding it was running so fast and wild, that it was the best ride I've ever had on it and one of the best I've had on any coaster.  It genuinely felt like they'd put an engine in the back of the train or something, it was absolutely wild.
 
So with all of that in mind.  I appreciate why it's not for everyone - to some people it's an archaic coaster with old tech - and that's fine!  But to me, it's an incredible feat of engineering, represents Geoffrey Thompson's amazing ambition and is a staple of the roller coaster industry.  Most importantly though, to me, it's still a phenomenal ride when pitched against modern coasters.  I'd describe it as 'timeless.'
 
Grand National - Again, predictable one from me.  Grand National is one of my favourite roller coasters of all time and like The Big One, still firmly sits in my top 10 despite me having been to various parks worldwide.
 
It's an absolutely wild coaster, packed full of insane amounts of airtime, laterals, unpredictability and really has that wild out-of-control feeling.  I love the layout of this ride, the way it gets more and more intense as it goes - the first big turnaround is quite calm, but by the last few you get these insane forces that really throw you across from one side of the seat to the other.
 
I have never, ever found this ride rough, it's absolutely mental but in the best way possible.  On top of that, factoring in its age and incredible history, it's a ride I have such a massive appreciation for and again - still stands up as one of the most intense, extreme rides out there.
 
Steeplechase - A ride that I feel doesn't get the credit it deserves.
 
It's not the most thrilling or big ride out there but it's so unique and different.  Being able to race two other lanes, sat on a horse on roller coaster track is just brilliant fun, and I also like how well the first half is landscaped and integrated with its surroundings.
 
Then the second half is fun with the interactions with Big Dipper, The Big One and Icon, and again it's just a ride that's so different and fun.
 
Nemesis Inferno - I joke that it's the only coaster at Thorpe I enjoy but I do enjoy it a lot.  It doesn't have to be "as good as Nemesis" to be good!
 
Inferno is decent in the morning but by the evening it's a wild, raucous blitz through inversions, forceful dives and turnarounds, and I just hit the brake run absolutely buzzing every time.

An extremely underrated ride in my opinion.
 
 
Roller coasters I like less than most
 
Icon - again, similar to above.  Icon is a ride I tried so hard to appreciate when it first opened at BPB, it had so much promise and the layout is very cleverly integrated with the park's other rides.  Also being a PB fan it was something I wanted to support.
 
Having ridden it enough times for the "new factor" to have worn off, I just really don't like it.  I don't think it's a terrible coaster so to speak, but it just doesn't do anything for me.
 
I find the pacing of it to be terrible, and a couple of decent elements don't save that.  Perhaps if the layout was taken faster it would be much more effective, but as it is, it just seems to meander round and also has the worst "finale" of any modern coaster.
 
It's also a huge shame that the elements that elevate it - mist, soundtrack, lighting - don't always work.
 
Almost every other major coaster at BPB slams into the brakes and leaves me grinning, Icon crawls into the brakes with a couple of boring s-turns, a dodgy airtime hill and the least effective near miss of the ride.  It's not even in my top 5 rides at Pleasure Beach, let alone the UK.
 
Such a bitter disappointment, but I'm glad that others seem to enjoy it more than me.
 
Oblivion - It's a masterclass in how to build up suspense through its theming - oh wait, no it's not, because the theming is broken and tampered with beyond repair.
 
It has a great first drop, but they forgot to build the rest of the layout.  It's like if Big One had its first drop and then went into the brake run, and it was built after?!   No, I appreciate elements of it were good, but those elements are knackered and the ride just doesn't hold up for me.
 
As much as the drop is good, a drop and a turn into the brakes do not make a good coaster.
 
Stealth - Similar issue to above, it's half the height of rides that existed before it and doesn't do anything ambitious or new.  It's like a diet Top Thrill Dragster and didn't even beat UK height records when it was built.

Coaster I like more than most
 
Grand National. Yes its rough and shaky as anything.....but what did people expect from a roller coaster well over 80 years old!!?? I find it good solid fun whenever I go to pleasure beach and its just an absolute classic. 
 
Big one. Sticking to the Pleasure beach, Big one may be a bumpy as heck coaster with little to no airtime but it has one of the best first drops I have experienced and is also just fun. A night ride on it is also legendary
 
Coasters I like less than most
 
Wodan. Now I do like Wodan, but I just feel it pales compared to other GCI coasters. Its airtime is not as good as that on Mystic Timbers and it also doesnt feel as rapid or as out of control as Troy. So whilst I like the ride, it just leaves me feeling short changed compared to the two I have just mentioned.
 
Icon. Now this ride is GOOD for the Uk market. I however just find it to be 10 percent decent elements and 90 percent slowly plodding around doing nothing. I can absolutely see why some adore this ride given its smoothness and interactions with the rides around it. I just want something more out of control,eventful and intense. This delivers none of that.

Couldnt agree more with the park guests!!
 
On all visits I have had its been full to the rafters with undesirables queue jumping and just acting like idiots around the park.
 
They actually make Thorpes very own clientele of undesirables look like saints and thats saying all one needs to know!!