Matt N

So I thought this was going to be a clone of Chessington's wing rider, but based on the pictures showing a lift hill it most certainly isn't. I'm even more intrigued now.

A recent article was posted: https://www.augsburger-allgemeine.de/guenzburg/guenzburg-das-legoland-baut-in-guenzburg-eine-neue-achterbahn-id61789116.html
 
It suggests that the new coaster will "briefly go upside down" and that riders will sit either side of the tracks. That would certainly suggest a B&M wingrider, and it adds more fuel to the fire that they have developed a 'junior' version in some way, suitable for a lower height restriction. It would likely be the same set up as Chessington's one too.
 
Also, an inverting roller coaster at a Legoland park. I never thought I'd see the day.

So the B&M surf coaster is essentially a stand up coaster with seats that move up and down? Really interested to see how this works/rides but can't say I'm particularly excited about it...

@Matt N that makes sense that policies have been changed following The Smiler accident. Buying second hand rides could be risky. A Theme Park could sell a ride due to an accident or breakdown. Surly when selling rides don’t Theme Parks have to inform the seller of any incidents involving the ride. Saying this  don’t sellers I.E Interlink service rides and get them expected by H&E professionals. If the latter happens purchasing a second hand ride could be safer than buying a new ride. For instance The Smiler,which was brand new,has endured many incidents, whereas Billy’s Wizzer (Monkey Swinger) which is second hand hasn’t had one. Second hand rides are probably inspected. On the other hand new rides are manufactured and sent. Personally I’d feel more comfortable purchasing a second hand ride. They’re vigorously tested and have worked at a Theme Park prior.
 
 I do see Merlin’s logic,although in some cases their reasoning is wrong.

I was impressed by operations yesterday. It's very rare to see a B&M inverter dispatch the train and having to actually wait for the second one to arrive back at the station. The fact this happened multiple times made it all the more impressive.
 
Great work

@Matt N when was this rule implemented? I know Black Buckaneer at Chessington was second hand. When opened as Smugglers Galleon in 1988 the ride had already operated for a couple of years. Chessington  has had many second hand rides. Others  include Dennis’s Mad House (Temple Of Mayhem) and Blly’s Wizzer (Monkey Swinger). I don’t know where Black Buckaneer or Billy’s Wizzer came from. I know Dennie’s Madhouse came from The Millennium Dome. If Chessington are/were aloud to purchase second hand rides why can’t Alton Towers. Their both owned by the same company. Chessington and Alton have always been under the same ownership. Prior to 2007 both Theme Parks were owned by the Tussaud’s Group.

I have an update; all of the wooden boards from Sub-Terra’s queue line are now gone:
Given that the frame underneath appears to have been carefully retained, I reckon that this is a strong indication that those wooden boards will be replaced in preparation for some kind of Sub-Terra reopening next year…

Having now done both, I personally prefer Thorpe's fright nights over scarefest at Alton.
 
I really enjoyed the attic at Alton, very well done maze and actually possibly one of my favourite mazes/run throughs of any maze I've ever done. However, they do not seem to change their line up very much by all accounts, and the new addition for their 15th(?) anniversary sounds pretty terrible (the lie down in a dark room with headphones thing), whilst thorpe has had some strong new additions like trailers and the crows (but granted also some weaker additions).
 
Another issue I have with scarefest is, because the park is so spread out, in most places there was no halloween theming at all, and no scare zones either (with actors) which I think is a mistake. Sure, near the entrance looked good, but how often are you walking past there? At least with Thorpe, they do have a scare zone or two and by being smaller I think the atmosphere is better on the halloween front as you often will walk past these, whereas with towers I was walking around for ages not seeing anything remotely themed or halloweeny, unless I wanted to go back to the entrance or pay to go in another maze. I did walk through the whispering woods walk thing, but no actors and pretty low effort.
 
I also know Thorpe struggles with queues, however if you look at last saturday at alton, it was insanely busy with many rides hitting 120 minutes, the previous saturday when I was there it wasn't much better either and we certainly queued a lot longer for rides than I ever had done at thorpe on similar days. For example, smiler ended up being 2 hours and all single shot fast tracks sold out on most coasters fairly early on, which is pretty crazy for the opening weekend. 
 
 

Back in the day I would always have said Fright Nights, hands down used to be my favourite UK scare event. But I think Fright Nights is a shadow of its former self. Shorter opening hours, poorer quality mazes, less mazes on offer and upcharge for the mazes. Part of the fun of Fright Nights was being able to have multiple run throughs the mazes which I can't justify doing at the prices they're charging. They also put no effort into parkwide lighting or sound anymore which makes a huge difference to the atmosphere.
 
I think Fright Nights trys to appeal more family friendly than it used to. I used to go to Fright Nights for the intense scares and watching things like the Amity show and Birthday Bash really doesn't interest me. 
 
I would say Scarefest is the better event now. Although they have an upcharge for the mazes, it works better as you rarely have to queue anything and the mazes are more consistent. I would still like to see some investment with scarefest though, the mazes are getting stale now and need a refresh. Would love to see a sub-species type maze return again.

There's a difference between suspended coaster and inverted coaster here. 
 
Suspended coasters, a la Vampire, have the ability to sway and swing. Inverted coasters, a la Nemesis, do not. Vampire was the UK's first suspended coaster, Nemesis the UK's and Europe's) first inverted coaster.
 
It's a pretty fernickty and largely pointless difference tbf.
 
As for Vampire retracking and potential planning permission. I believe the Nemesis application wasn't a full application, and instead something that was done to check the legality of doing it without full permission. And indeed I believe full permission is not required. So that could be the case for a like-for-like track replacement. 
 
The trickier thing is that the location of Vampire is much more contentious. There's a long standing and believable rumour that if Chessington removed Vampire, they wouldn't be able to use that space for a new ride due to its location. Would the council, and locals, really be a fan of a retracking job?

Anything could happen, obviously, but am I the only one who’s a bit sceptical about this whole Emily Alton theory?
 
Personally, I wonder if Emily Alton would be an overly niche reference for most guests. Remember, she isn’t a major part of the ride and never has been; she is literally just a fleeting gag in the indoor queue line that some guests might catch a glimpse of for a second or two.
 
For that reason, I’m not sure about the prospect of a ride centred around Emily Alton. Most non-enthusiasts (and probably a fair percentage of enthusiasts) probably won’t know who Emily Alton is, and given how small her appearance within the HH/Duel was, it seems like an overly niche thing to focus on to me.
 
It absolutely could happen, but I’m not sure that I see it as the most likely option. Some storyline or narrative applied to the ride would be nice, but I’ll admit that I think an Emily Alton-centred ride would go over most guests’ heads given her fairly limited role in the previous iterations of the ride.

Anything could happen, obviously, but am I the only one who’s a bit sceptical about this whole Emily Alton theory?
 
Personally, I wonder if Emily Alton would be an overly niche reference for most guests. Remember, she isn’t a major part of the ride and never has been; she is literally just a fleeting gag in the indoor queue line that some guests might catch a glimpse of for a second or two.
 
For that reason, I’m not sure about the prospect of a ride centred around Emily Alton. Most non-enthusiasts (and probably a fair percentage of enthusiasts) probably won’t know who Emily Alton is, and given how small her appearance within the HH/Duel was, it seems like an overly niche thing to focus on to me.
 
It absolutely could happen, but I’m not sure that I see it as the most likely option. Some storyline or narrative applied to the ride would be nice, but I’ll admit that I think an Emily Alton-centred ride would go over most guests’ heads given her fairly limited role in the previous iterations of the ride.

@Matt N I don’t know suspifics but I know a skeleton is in Duel.

@Matt N I’d have to disagree with you for once. Vampire is extremely iconic even more than Nemesis at Alton Towers. Vampire was the Rollercoaster that made Chessington the success it is. Without Vampire Chessington would be nowhere on the scale it is. Although iconic Nemesis doesn’t represent the success of Alton Towers. Nemesis is purely iconic as it was the first Rollercoaster in the U.K to have more than one Inversion (Loop). Both rides were created by the highly successful John Wardley. In some respects Vampire was the prototype for Nemesis. Vampire is like a toned down and simplified version of Nemesis. 
 
If Vampire left Chessington it wouldn’t be the same Theme Park. Vampire is the beating heart of Chessington. Not only is the ride iconic in the success of the Theme Park but it’s definitely Chessington’s most popular ride. The standard que time for Vampire is at least an hour. Compare this to the other Rollercoasters that normally have ques under half an hour,and it becomes apparent just how beloved Vampire is. Personally Vampire is my favourite Rollercoaster at Chessington.

Danny on TowersStreet Talk has made an interesting discovery within Zierer's IAAPA product magazine that arguably drops a heavy hint towards Legoland's new coaster being a Zierer family shuttle rather than a Vekoma Family Boomerang, and also provides an insight into a potential theme for the new ride:

I don't know about any of you, but that "Dueling Reverse Coaster" looks exactly like Legoland's proposed layout to me, and the cops and robbers type trains in the left image could possibly hint towards a Lego City theme, in my view. That would certainly suit both Lego and a duelling roller coaster, so would work well, in my view.
P.S. Here's Danny's TowersStreet post: https://towersstreet.com/talk/threads/legoland-windsor.67/page-77#post-382844
 

@Matt N  I don't see and resemblance between the two mentioned rides except the theme. Around The World In 80 Days was far more basic, annoying and stereotypical than Its A small World. Even the Animatronics are worlds apart as Its A small World uses Dolls, whereas Around The World In 80 Days used life size animatronics even if they were out of proportion. Comparing Its A Small World to Around The World In 80 Days is an insult to the classic Disney ride. Around The World In 80 Days lacked any charm, soundtrack or creativity. From watching POVS I can say with certainty that Toyland Tours was a huge upgrade. As for the wall of Doom and Sons those lives on, I think its lovely that Alton Towers has acknowledged their past by retaining this relic. Alton Towers must have thought a lot of Doom and Sons as this wall has survived 3 rethemes. Further features of Doom and Sons remain at Alton Towers. Numerous aspects of Alton Towers's original spooky attraction were relocated to Duel. I hope the Doom and Sons elements still feature in Duel when the refurbished ride reopens next year. The main aspects of Duel I would happily see go are the features added for the Duel retheme in 2003. 

@Matt N If the new Legoland Rollercoaster will have this theme, I think it should be built in Lego City formally known as Traffic. Having a mildly thrilling transport themed Rollercoaster in Duplo Vally will look wrong. Considering Duplo Vally is primerally aimed at younger guests the placement is even more obscure. I suppose Duplo Vally could be condensed with half being rethemed to Lego city. The new Lego City could be a spiritual successor to the original l that is now Heartlake City. Following this retheme the current Lego City could become traffic once more. I've always thought the renaming of Traffic was ludicrous. When I think of Citys Shops,Eaterys,and entertainment venues come to mind. I certainly don't think soley of Transport. If part of Duplo Vally is transformed into Lego City, I think the remaining area needs an overhaul. I certainly think the broken theming on Fairytale Brook needs to be repaired. Additionally, I think the water squirters should be reintroduced. The surprise of getting wet added an element of suspense and fun.

I actually wasn't aware of the budget allocated to the project. I never even thought of a potential of an IP ruining the attraction. I'm sure we would of heard about a deal if one had been agreed on. Seeing how lots of revamped rides at Merlin parks get IP slapped on, I'd be very happy if this one remains it's own unique attraction.
 
In terms of what I'd like to see brought in. Pepper's Ghost effects. I'd like to see Pepper's Ghost effect utilised loads. You could even use screens to create the effect, although you cannot beat using physical props. 

Agree with the above - it’s nice for parks to pay tribute to their past with merchandise and Easter eggs in theming but overall they need to move onto the next new thing.
 
Sometimes rethemes or other changes to rides don’t go down well but I don’t think the solution is to try to go back in time.
 
It’s looking to the future that brings innovation and makes the parks more exciting!

Announcement soon..? 👀

I like parks that celebrate their past with nostalgic merchandise and subtle hints at their past. The Corkscrews at Towers for example or the gravestones at Chessington dedicated to Zappomatic and Professor Burp. I don't think parks should pander to their history though. Emily Alton & Nemesis Sub Terra mean nothing to the majority of park enthusiasts, let alone the general public.
 
This is very Alton specific this topic, frankly theres a reason all these rides have left the park. Replacing them is the problem as all these rides gone have reduced the parks capacity considerably. 

Sorry to bump this thread, but I have a Sub-Terra update after over 4 years of inactivity in this thread.
 
Considerable rumours have been swirling in recent days about the potential of it reopening in 2023, as a potential marketing tool to hype up the Nemesis retrack as well as to ease the burden on Galactica & The Blade while Nemesis is out of action.
 
Now I hear what you’re all saying; “This rumour has reared its head practically every year since the ride closed. What makes it any more likely to happen this time?”. That is a valid point, in fairness, but there seems to be a bit more weight behind this rumour at the moment, as well as various reasons why it would make a lot of sense.
 
Recently, there has been quite a bit of work going on in and around the Sub-Terra area. The doors to the building have been open, alarms have been tested, the queue line has been cleared... a fair bit's been going on. In fairness, some of this has gone on in previous years as well, so I can understand scepticism, but the ride does seem to have had an irregularly high amount of work going on around it lately. However... one key thing has now happened that has not happened in any previous year, and that's that they are removing a significant amount of the wood panels from the queue line, which could indicate that they are planning to replace them... which would heavily hint towards it being used again in some capacity. DanJB from TowersStreet Talk shared these photos:


Source: https://towersstreet.com/talk/threads/nemesis-sub-terra.4452/page-36#post-382319
 
Given that they've done next to nothing to Sub-Terra's building since it closed in 2015, I think the fact that they're suddenly ripping out loads of wooden boards is quite a telling sign that they're planning to do something or other with it. If they're ripping stuff out now without an intention to use the building, why would they not have done it at some other point in the last 7 years?
 
That isn't the only indication, though... with the closure of Nemesis now announced, Alton Towers have suddenly started making a big deal about The Phalanx. The signs around the park advertising Nemesis' closure are supposedly "by order of The Phalanx", and the staff on Nemesis are now wearing boiler suits with the Phalanx logo on them. It should be noted that The Phalanx were never really a part of Nemesis' story until Sub-Terra... could the park's sudden emphasis upon The Phalanx be an indicator that Sub-Terra is making a return?
 
I should also note that Jb85 on TowersStreet Talk, who works for a local lighting company who have supplied Alton Towers before, has claimed that Alton Towers has requested their services once again for a 2023 project... in the Sub-Terra building:
Source: https://towersstreet.com/talk/threads/nemesis-sub-terra.4452/page-29#post-378308
 
There are also various sources hinting towards a return of the ride next year... the staff are supposedly telling people that Sub-Terra is due to return, various people in the know are hinting towards it and YouTubers, including Theme Park Worldwide, have started making videos about the possibility of it returning.
 
Now I'm not saying that YouTubers are to be taken as gospel by any stretch, but for what it's worth, Shawn made a video about Duel potentially getting a revamp earlier this year when the evidence pointing towards such a thing was still pretty spurious (probably less concrete than what we're seeing here, as there was neither visible construction nor potentially relevant park teasers), and even though people at the time dismissed it as him simply "stirring the pot on a slow news day", he was actually proven correct when the ride closed a few months later. Now he could well have just been adding 2 and 2 and happened to be correct by coincidence, but given that he worked at Alton Towers for 7 years, lives in the local area and is friendly with many Alton Towers employees, I don't think it's inconceivable to suggest that he might have inside sources. Here's TPW's video:
 
Another YouTuber, Lift Hills and Thrills, made a video "confirming" that Sub-Terra was returning in 2023. Now I'd take this with a pinch of salt without official park confirmation, but for what it's worth, this person did talk about the Nemesis retrack a year before it was announced (as he reminds us of in the comments), and he said something that I thought was a very intriguing comment to make if he didn't know something... he said that "the capacity of the drop towers may be reduced". Now I don't know about you, but I thought this was a bizarrely specific thing to pick up on if he hadn't genuinely been told something. The speaker also hints that the ride "won't be the same Sub Terra we previously knew"... here's his video:
(Go to 3:11 to hear about the capacity comment)
 
So that's the evidence we have to suggest Nemesis Sub-Terra could be reopening next season. I don't know about you, but I think that that's pretty solid evidence; there's both concrete evidence (the work), and a fair bit of smoke rumours-wise, and as they always say, there's no smoke without fire.
 
Personally, I'm pretty confident that we could be seeing Sub-Terra return in some form next season. The rumour mill is spinning significantly more than it has been in previous years, not to mention that there is also a fair amount of concrete evidence (work taking place inside the building, the sprucing up, and the recent hefty removal of queue line wood), as well as possible hints from the park themselves (why have Alton Towers suddenly made The Phalanx such a big thing on Nemesis?). Not to mention that I think it would make an awful lot of sense; that area of the park could use some support capacity-wise without Nemesis, and I also think that Sub-Terra reopening could be quite an effective marketing tool for the retrack.
 
But what do you guys reckon?
TL;DR Rumours are swirling that Nemesis Sub-Terra could be reopening in 2023. This is because:
Significant work has been taking place in and around the building, including the recent removal of a fair amount of queue line wood. The park have suddenly made a lot of references to The Phalanx (a key part of Sub-Terra) around Nemesis.  There are many sources, including park staff, suggesting that the ride could be reopening next season.  

Sorry to double post, but I have an update... as per TowersStreet Facebook, construction fences have also now been put up around the building:
https://www.facebook.com/TowersStreet/posts/pfbid02kyjuthqiWHsnkXDbsTk7wiebzw6gKsSwLUff8zz2tYdxtvyXd8woYFTfBU7dJayFl
 
I don't know about any of you, but to me, this certainly implies that something is happening...
 

I went to towers on Saturday, the first saturday of scarefest. This was my first time at scarefest so here are my thoughts.
 
It was absolutely packed, probably one step down from school holidays but the busiest I've personally seen the park. The busyness predictor website got it quite wrong. Think next time I'll avoid a saturday!
 
We got on Rita, Thirteen, wicker man, nemesis, galactica, smiler and oblivion, so pretty much the main rides once, this is with being there shortly after opening to beyond closing with a very short break around lunch not queuing. We also did the attic. 
 
We found the queue times pretty inaccurate in many cases, smiler was advertised as 70 but ended up being around 90 and I doubt it dropped below that all day, one shot fast tracks sold out early on and I could see the fast track queues were quite large for rides like smiler. Also long RAP queues at each ride. Perhaps this all contributed to the queues moving slowly across the board. Rita said 15 but was 50, thirteen said 40 but was 65. Wicker man was fairly accurate at least at 75 min. I also hadn't personally seen nemesis get a queue like that (around an hour). Was kinda gutted not to have time to fit in one final ride on Wicker Man, but that can wait until march.
 
We did notice they'd invited quite a few 'celebs', e.g. we saw curtis prichard, I also heard 'lad baby' was on the park to try to pretend the invitation was good.  I assume this is the route their marketing team is going down.
 
We did one maze (the attic) as we personally find £9 each a bit punchy, and the invitation sounded awful. The attic was really great, I actually think it was one of my favourite mazes ever, the setting and decor was second to none and the actors made a lot of effort- the devil guy especially made me jump several times. They got the smoke effects and lighting just right and actually it was very intense. Definitely worth the £9.
 
I did however think the effort made across the park for scarefest, other than by the entrance, was pretty poor. I think they need some scare zones, roaming actors, or similar. The rides have cool themes, they need to make the most of them.

Good post!
 
I’ll be honest, I’m not sure it’s a good thing.
Bringing back the haunted house, bubbleworks or black hole would be very odd now adays and feel very dated.
 
I think unless you’re Disney, attractions need to leave at some point when they feel old and tired.
 
I think as long as what is built in its place, it’s a good thing to retire and replace attractions. Subtly throwbacks and stuff are cool though.