Matt N

I actually wasn't aware of the budget allocated to the project. I never even thought of a potential of an IP ruining the attraction. I'm sure we would of heard about a deal if one had been agreed on. Seeing how lots of revamped rides at Merlin parks get IP slapped on, I'd be very happy if this one remains it's own unique attraction.
 
In terms of what I'd like to see brought in. Pepper's Ghost effects. I'd like to see Pepper's Ghost effect utilised loads. You could even use screens to create the effect, although you cannot beat using physical props. 

Agree with the above - it’s nice for parks to pay tribute to their past with merchandise and Easter eggs in theming but overall they need to move onto the next new thing.
 
Sometimes rethemes or other changes to rides don’t go down well but I don’t think the solution is to try to go back in time.
 
It’s looking to the future that brings innovation and makes the parks more exciting!

Announcement soon..? 👀

I like parks that celebrate their past with nostalgic merchandise and subtle hints at their past. The Corkscrews at Towers for example or the gravestones at Chessington dedicated to Zappomatic and Professor Burp. I don't think parks should pander to their history though. Emily Alton & Nemesis Sub Terra mean nothing to the majority of park enthusiasts, let alone the general public.
 
This is very Alton specific this topic, frankly theres a reason all these rides have left the park. Replacing them is the problem as all these rides gone have reduced the parks capacity considerably. 

Sorry to bump this thread, but I have a Sub-Terra update after over 4 years of inactivity in this thread.
 
Considerable rumours have been swirling in recent days about the potential of it reopening in 2023, as a potential marketing tool to hype up the Nemesis retrack as well as to ease the burden on Galactica & The Blade while Nemesis is out of action.
 
Now I hear what you’re all saying; “This rumour has reared its head practically every year since the ride closed. What makes it any more likely to happen this time?”. That is a valid point, in fairness, but there seems to be a bit more weight behind this rumour at the moment, as well as various reasons why it would make a lot of sense.
 
Recently, there has been quite a bit of work going on in and around the Sub-Terra area. The doors to the building have been open, alarms have been tested, the queue line has been cleared... a fair bit's been going on. In fairness, some of this has gone on in previous years as well, so I can understand scepticism, but the ride does seem to have had an irregularly high amount of work going on around it lately. However... one key thing has now happened that has not happened in any previous year, and that's that they are removing a significant amount of the wood panels from the queue line, which could indicate that they are planning to replace them... which would heavily hint towards it being used again in some capacity. DanJB from TowersStreet Talk shared these photos:


Source: https://towersstreet.com/talk/threads/nemesis-sub-terra.4452/page-36#post-382319
 
Given that they've done next to nothing to Sub-Terra's building since it closed in 2015, I think the fact that they're suddenly ripping out loads of wooden boards is quite a telling sign that they're planning to do something or other with it. If they're ripping stuff out now without an intention to use the building, why would they not have done it at some other point in the last 7 years?
 
That isn't the only indication, though... with the closure of Nemesis now announced, Alton Towers have suddenly started making a big deal about The Phalanx. The signs around the park advertising Nemesis' closure are supposedly "by order of The Phalanx", and the staff on Nemesis are now wearing boiler suits with the Phalanx logo on them. It should be noted that The Phalanx were never really a part of Nemesis' story until Sub-Terra... could the park's sudden emphasis upon The Phalanx be an indicator that Sub-Terra is making a return?
 
I should also note that Jb85 on TowersStreet Talk, who works for a local lighting company who have supplied Alton Towers before, has claimed that Alton Towers has requested their services once again for a 2023 project... in the Sub-Terra building:
Source: https://towersstreet.com/talk/threads/nemesis-sub-terra.4452/page-29#post-378308
 
There are also various sources hinting towards a return of the ride next year... the staff are supposedly telling people that Sub-Terra is due to return, various people in the know are hinting towards it and YouTubers, including Theme Park Worldwide, have started making videos about the possibility of it returning.
 
Now I'm not saying that YouTubers are to be taken as gospel by any stretch, but for what it's worth, Shawn made a video about Duel potentially getting a revamp earlier this year when the evidence pointing towards such a thing was still pretty spurious (probably less concrete than what we're seeing here, as there was neither visible construction nor potentially relevant park teasers), and even though people at the time dismissed it as him simply "stirring the pot on a slow news day", he was actually proven correct when the ride closed a few months later. Now he could well have just been adding 2 and 2 and happened to be correct by coincidence, but given that he worked at Alton Towers for 7 years, lives in the local area and is friendly with many Alton Towers employees, I don't think it's inconceivable to suggest that he might have inside sources. Here's TPW's video:
 
Another YouTuber, Lift Hills and Thrills, made a video "confirming" that Sub-Terra was returning in 2023. Now I'd take this with a pinch of salt without official park confirmation, but for what it's worth, this person did talk about the Nemesis retrack a year before it was announced (as he reminds us of in the comments), and he said something that I thought was a very intriguing comment to make if he didn't know something... he said that "the capacity of the drop towers may be reduced". Now I don't know about you, but I thought this was a bizarrely specific thing to pick up on if he hadn't genuinely been told something. The speaker also hints that the ride "won't be the same Sub Terra we previously knew"... here's his video:
(Go to 3:11 to hear about the capacity comment)
 
So that's the evidence we have to suggest Nemesis Sub-Terra could be reopening next season. I don't know about you, but I think that that's pretty solid evidence; there's both concrete evidence (the work), and a fair bit of smoke rumours-wise, and as they always say, there's no smoke without fire.
 
Personally, I'm pretty confident that we could be seeing Sub-Terra return in some form next season. The rumour mill is spinning significantly more than it has been in previous years, not to mention that there is also a fair amount of concrete evidence (work taking place inside the building, the sprucing up, and the recent hefty removal of queue line wood), as well as possible hints from the park themselves (why have Alton Towers suddenly made The Phalanx such a big thing on Nemesis?). Not to mention that I think it would make an awful lot of sense; that area of the park could use some support capacity-wise without Nemesis, and I also think that Sub-Terra reopening could be quite an effective marketing tool for the retrack.
 
But what do you guys reckon?
TL;DR Rumours are swirling that Nemesis Sub-Terra could be reopening in 2023. This is because:
Significant work has been taking place in and around the building, including the recent removal of a fair amount of queue line wood. The park have suddenly made a lot of references to The Phalanx (a key part of Sub-Terra) around Nemesis.  There are many sources, including park staff, suggesting that the ride could be reopening next season.  

Sorry to double post, but I have an update... as per TowersStreet Facebook, construction fences have also now been put up around the building:
https://www.facebook.com/TowersStreet/posts/pfbid02kyjuthqiWHsnkXDbsTk7wiebzw6gKsSwLUff8zz2tYdxtvyXd8woYFTfBU7dJayFl
 
I don't know about any of you, but to me, this certainly implies that something is happening...
 

I went to towers on Saturday, the first saturday of scarefest. This was my first time at scarefest so here are my thoughts.
 
It was absolutely packed, probably one step down from school holidays but the busiest I've personally seen the park. The busyness predictor website got it quite wrong. Think next time I'll avoid a saturday!
 
We got on Rita, Thirteen, wicker man, nemesis, galactica, smiler and oblivion, so pretty much the main rides once, this is with being there shortly after opening to beyond closing with a very short break around lunch not queuing. We also did the attic. 
 
We found the queue times pretty inaccurate in many cases, smiler was advertised as 70 but ended up being around 90 and I doubt it dropped below that all day, one shot fast tracks sold out early on and I could see the fast track queues were quite large for rides like smiler. Also long RAP queues at each ride. Perhaps this all contributed to the queues moving slowly across the board. Rita said 15 but was 50, thirteen said 40 but was 65. Wicker man was fairly accurate at least at 75 min. I also hadn't personally seen nemesis get a queue like that (around an hour). Was kinda gutted not to have time to fit in one final ride on Wicker Man, but that can wait until march.
 
We did notice they'd invited quite a few 'celebs', e.g. we saw curtis prichard, I also heard 'lad baby' was on the park to try to pretend the invitation was good.  I assume this is the route their marketing team is going down.
 
We did one maze (the attic) as we personally find £9 each a bit punchy, and the invitation sounded awful. The attic was really great, I actually think it was one of my favourite mazes ever, the setting and decor was second to none and the actors made a lot of effort- the devil guy especially made me jump several times. They got the smoke effects and lighting just right and actually it was very intense. Definitely worth the £9.
 
I did however think the effort made across the park for scarefest, other than by the entrance, was pretty poor. I think they need some scare zones, roaming actors, or similar. The rides have cool themes, they need to make the most of them.

Good post!
 
I’ll be honest, I’m not sure it’s a good thing.
Bringing back the haunted house, bubbleworks or black hole would be very odd now adays and feel very dated.
 
I think unless you’re Disney, attractions need to leave at some point when they feel old and tired.
 
I think as long as what is built in its place, it’s a good thing to retire and replace attractions. Subtly throwbacks and stuff are cool though.

@Matt N Snowy’s Emily Alton’s pet Cat.

Completely agree with that @RobF - the newer ones just aren’t the same are they. Some have been good, but I don’t know.. they just aren’t the same! I can’t put it in to words somehow.
 
I also think Thorpe has been very rough and ready and very inconsistent. Some run throughs are better than others, which used to be fine when the mazes were free, but not now they’re £700 a go or whatever they’re charging this season.

Tbh I still think Thorpe's top Mazes were the original/earlier years Asylum, hellgate, cabin/ original valentine .  I haven't rated the more recent mazes, I have never had a good run on creek freak

This is an interesting one this year.
 
I always think that, generally, Thorpe smash it on paper nearly every year - but Towers ultimately deliver the better event in the end, with more consistent mazes, better crowd control and just generally a “nicer time”.
It’s also far less likely to go to s*** at Towers when it gets busy - as I have said many times, Thorpe just can’t seem to handle a crowd for some reason.
 
Every year I go to both events, and for almost a decade now I’ve had said Scarefest wins the battle, but it’s been close over the years.
 
I’d say Fright Nights has been in decline since the era of the walking dead stuff - it just somehow hasn’t been was it once was.
however this year seems to have turned a corner - Survival Games looks like a return to form (a very simple, intense, proper old-school scare maze with no “with a difference” bs).
I hope they can be consistent and reliably keep standards up throughout the event, which they haven’t managed for years.
 
This year I just can’t be bothered with Scarefest though - only 2 mazes on offer, very expensive, and nothing new that’s worth doing. Their event feels like an afterthought.

I haven’t yet been to FN so I think that will win it for me this year.
Having said that, my FN visit last year was the worst theme park visit I’ve ever had…
 
Time will tell - but basically I think my tl;dr answer is Scarefest - but probably not this season.

Yeah I think the development of the park would have been very different to what actually happened.  I seem to remember (it was my first season in 2000 at the park so my recollection might be a bit hazy) that Zodiac appeared a couple of weeks after WWH burnt down and was literally plonked down where Vortex currently is.  I agree with Matt N that the park may have been a bit more balanced with family and thrill rides rather than what we have got now. Its a shame as one of my first memories of TP was Phantom Fantasia. The day of the fire was pretty crazy!

Thanks for this! Couldn't remember the name of the book 😀

I remember reading somewhere that John Wardley was most upset when it burnt down "before he could get his hands on it", so I would like to think that it would have survived with a John Wardley revamp until at least the 2010's.  Also Josh you are correct with the RnR clone infrastructure issue.  I remember speaking with the development director about why it didn't get built, and that was the reason he gave. He also stated the idea was a quick response to the fire, as they had heard on the grapevine that Disney Paris would be getting RnR (in 2002)

My Thorpe rankings are..
1. Nemesis Inferno, for me my number one off ride like the theme, the soundtracks both old and new the booming low frequency in the queue and the base in the station that adds to the area and the interlocking corkscrews element path views. On ride I like the speed it carries throughout l, the twist and turns and the rush of blood to the head as you walk down the stairs recovering from the forces.
2. Swarm, A very close number 2 torn between right or left side but my past few visits tend to ride the left rear when possible. Off ride swarm island is in my eyes the best area of the park which says a lot with broken screens graffiti all over the station etc but anyway an area well done and I actually quite like the current mishmash of music the area currently has between the old and new music. On ride great first drop followed by the near miss elements and forces feel a tad too restricted with the vest restraints which is the only reason it’s number 2 as I like a looser restraint.
3. Colossus, I always enjoy the interactiveness you get walking along the paths to this ride. Are the trains terrible YES are the restraints even worse OF COURSE but I enjoy the layout and the length of ride time you get with Colossus plus at the time was quite a big deal for Thorpe. I don’t find it too rough to the point I’m not able to enjoy it.
4. Stealth, Now as much as I appreciate the ride and maybe never experiencing a front row could be a reason why it’s not higher but I value a ride that has a longer ride time and for me it’s a do once if there’s time and no queue, love the launch just personally prefer longer coasters.
5. Walking Dead, I always have fun on this with watching others reactions down the corridors and when they have the Zombies in the canteen, I know this isn’t meant to be a funny theme but with that along side a fun little coaster that’s good enough for me.
6. Saw, Love the theme the area the layout of the ride and wish I could enjoy this thing unfortunately I just don’t enjoy how rough it is no matter if inside or outside front or back row the pain I get after with head, neck and shoulders mean it’s a once a year job for me which is a shame, any tips appreciated I’m only 5,11 and have no problems with Colossus but can’t not manage to look after myself on this one.
7. Flying fish, does what it’s meant to do well great starter coaster for nostalgic reasons always have a ride on this. 
 
 

Jack Silkstone has confirmed in his livestream that it’s been unanimously approved by the council!
 
It still needs to go to the Secretary of State due to the EA’s objections, but this is still a huge step!

Apologies for getting around to this so late, but as some of you might know, I went to visit Drayton Manor last Thursday for a first look at the Vikings area. And I’ve got to say, it’s really nice! Let me break down each element of it individually…
The Area
The area looks really nice. The whole thing has a really nice wooden look to it, and considering that this area of the park was mostly unused land before, I think they’ve tarted it up very well! It all looks very neat, there’s lots of nice little touches around the area, and on the whole, it just looks really nice; good work, Drayton Manor! There have been a lot of comparisons with Tornado Springs at Paultons Park thrown around about this area. Do I think Vikings is as heavily themed and detailed as Tornado Springs? No. But I think it works really well as it is, and arbitrary comparisons with Tornado Springs don’t really do it justice; all of the wooden buildings, the rocks and the landscaping look lovely, and make for a very nice overall effect, and I do quite like the area soundtrack as well! I should also add that I think the new pedestrian entrance, which enters into the area, looks really nice; it’s been finished off very nicely, fits into the Vikings aesthetic surprisingly well, and I also think that it is more centrally located than Drayton’s old one, which works well. All in all, I think the area has been done very well, and works very nicely:


The Rides
During my visit, I was able to ride Thor once, Loki once, and Jormungandr four times. I’ll talk about each one individually in a short paragraph…
Thor
I was a little bit skeptical about riding my first Zamperla Disk’O, as I have quite a low spin tolerance, but I’ve got to say that it wasn’t as bad as I was expecting, and I did quite enjoy it! Riding up the ends was quite fun, and even though the airtime hill in the middle didn’t really give any airtime, it was still a fun element! As I said, the ride was not as nauseating as I’d feared, and the riding position felt less weird on ride than I thought it would, as well! Theming-wise; there’s not loads going on, but the ride looks nice enough, with a nice wooden aesthetic throughout the queue line and the area, some nice shields, and a nice Viking helmet on the ride vehicle as well! Overall, I thought Thor was a fun ride, and nicely themed too:


Loki
I was intrigued to ride Loki, as it’s the UK’s first Zamperla Nebulaz, and a rather unique ride. I’ve got to say, it’s a brilliant visual centrepiece, with all the arms interacting with each other making for a very captivating display! In terms of how it rides; I thought it was… strange. It’s not the most nauseating flat ride I’ve done by any means, but I’m sorry to say that that repeated lurching sensation did make me feel a bit odd, and unlike Thor, I’d argue that this ride is perhaps more intense than it looks. It does look really cool, though, and the fact I’m not generally a flat ride person isn’t something that it can help! It’s quite nicely themed as well, with some nice shields and patterns and a generally nice wooden aesthetic to it:


Jormungandr
Unlike the other two rides, Jormungandr was not new to me; I had done it in its previous incarnation in 2018, and it’s safe to say that 2018 me would have been very surprised that I was riding it in a new Viking-themed form in 2022, as I remember making special effort to ride it in 2018 on the pretence that it was being “removed imminently”. In terms of the ride itself, I’d remembered it being a perfectly fine, if not overly remarkable, powered coaster, and my rides in 2022 very much reinforced this view; I rode it in various different rows, and while it’s no Runaway Mine Train or Alpenexpress, it does its job perfectly well, in my opinion. There are actually some moments where it gains fair speed; those helixes are good fun, as is the s-bend sequence towards the end! The ride does very much blow hot and cold pacing-wise, however, more so than I’d remembered; it feels like it’s nearly going to stall going up some of the inclines, and there’s other bits where it just sort of meanders aimlessly along straight bits of track at a speed that I dare say feels more monorail than coaster. Overall, though, I think it’s a perfectly adequate coaster for what it is; it’s perhaps showing its age a tad, but that doesn’t really matter given its role within the area and Drayton Manor at large. Also, I have got to say that I think they’ve spruced the ride up very well; the new train design is great, I love the way that the track is now framed within the entrance to the Vikings area, and I think they’ve made the queue and station look very nice, with a really nice Viking soundtrack added:


So overall, I think Vikings is a lovely area, and I think it bodes very well for Drayton Manor’s future in themed attractions! The overall finish is very nice, and there are some really nice details; I’d thoroughly recommend a visit!
 
In terms of my visit to Drayton Manor as a whole; it was only my second ever visit to the park, with my first being in 2018, and it was an absolute stonker of a day, with 30 rides being completed in 6 hours on park! That’s a new personal best for me ride count-wise; the park was dead, with nothing on more than a 1 or 2 cycle wait all day!
 
I did do a longer trip report of my whole day, but in terms of some key pointers from the day:
Apocalypse is a great ride, but very much gives off the impression that it’s limping to the finish line. Only one sit-down tower was operating; the other 4 looked completely broken, and as though they hadn’t operated in some time. It is a really great tower, though; I’ve never quite gotten the hype for it, but it does still provide an awesome gut punch, and it will certainly be missed! Adventure Cove, the other recent area, also looks lovely, with some very vibrant colours throughout and a nice soundtrack that feels almost like WWTP Radio from Amity Cove at Thorpe Park! I was somewhat disappointed with Adventure Cove River Rapids, however; I came off it absolutely bone dry, and while I accept that I could have ridden it on an off-day, the opportunities for wetness were minimal. It was drier than both Congo River Rapids and Rumba Rapids, by my reckoning, which surprised me. It is a nice relaxing ride to sit down on, though, and it looks very nice, so I probably shouldn’t be so harsh! The Haunting is very impressive! The story is very well told, and the attraction has a surprisingly dark, foreboding tone throughout; as someone who is quite easily scared, I was legitimately somewhat unnerved by it! Shockwave seems to have gotten a fair bit rougher, with some nasty ear bashing present in quite a few sections; I had a sore ear for a good few days after my visit. I maintain that I don’t find the standup riding position that bad, however, and that zero-g roll is a truly epic inversion! Stormforce 10’s backwards drop is a real soaker! The initial drop and the final drop aren’t too bad, but the backwards drop got me fairly drenched! I have no idea why that second drop is such a soaker compared to the other two… If you want to read my more in-depth trip report, here’s the link: 
 

This is obviously great news. As I understand it, what this now means is:
 
-Construction still cannot take place until the Secretary of State has made their decision 
-Thorpe directly requested the decision go to the Secretary of State, owing to the EA dragging their heels and being uncooperative
-Whatever the Secretary of State rules will be pretty much final. The EA could appeal, but as I understand it, that would be unsuccessful
-The decision from the Secretary of State seems like it could take up to 22 weeks to be reached. Including time for Christmas breaks, we're looking at mid-March 2023 at the potential latest for a decision. That assumes no delays or other things I don't know about. Obviously it could be significantly quicker though. 
 
Now here's the thing. If construction was due to start next month, and gets delayed until say March/April 2023, how significant will that be? Will we see the ride open summer 2024? Or even later in the year? Or do the park pull the executive decision and wait till 2025 to open it?
 
Good news, and I reckon it means Exodus is coming for definite. But when is the big question.

Jack Silkstone has confirmed in his livestream that it’s been unanimously approved by the council!
 
It still needs to go to the Secretary of State due to the EA’s objections, but this is still a huge step!

But EA objections STILL remain, leading this planning permission to be referred to the Secretary of State, so it can actually be approved.
 
The amount of misinformation is unreal.

Checked that first random planning application, that didn’t change after they moved onto thorpe park. 
 
Waiting for Jack Silkstones stream, Twitter is a mess now.
 
People saying it’s been approved, running wild and saying “imagine if we see work start”
 
wait until it has to be referred to government.
 
I can’t imagine it’s been rejected, but a lot of fake news on Twitter 

Double post sorry, but:
 

Hello again @Trooper Looper; welcome over here to TPM!

So far nearly all of the launch track, the station and offload and half of the break run have been removed. 
 

 

 
Rumours abound that the track is being converted to take LSM which seems pretty obvious to me. Still weird to see such an iconic and important coaster in bits.