[Hocus Pocus Hall]

4 hours ago, JoshC. said:

The industry has changed from what it used to be, what you liked it to be, and Merlin is responding to that change

They're not responding to a natural change. They are constructing a change to suit their business model best, or at least following the commercialism started by other entertainment giants. It's the McDonalds 'clone and conquer' model that has been around for decades, only now it's happening to theme parks outside of Disney.

Merlin and others have systematically changed the theme park industry to be what suits their business model best. This includes running a monopoly in the UK, so that they can squeezing people's salaries, strip out value for money, charge higher, and give unfair contracts to attraction industry contractors who have few other businesses to work for in the UK.

All I "liked the theme park industry to be" is entertaining and something unique, not just a commercial extension of pre-existing franchises and a highly marketed tourist trap machine. This is exactly the same as how I feel about the movie industry and music industry today, the only difference with those being that there is far more selection to chose from and great music/movies can still be made on low-medium budgets (even of kinds I don't have a taste for, it doesn't matter, as long as they can still be made). But you can't make a theme park on a budget smaller than several million.

In their quest for massive growth in the shortest time possible, the only thing that suits Merlin's model is growing a quota of IPs. Then pumping huge amounts into marketing manipulation, to get people to pay more for less and go for brand over value. That's really all there is behind their decisions.

It's a negative on the whole industry, not just my personal preference. You say all parks are adapting towards this, but many hugely successful parks around the world show the enormous benefits of going for long-term value than short term fads.

Take a look at one of the most successful 'new' franchises in the last 25 years, Pirates of the Caribbean. The original movie was an idea that people were trying to get off the ground for years, but Disney actively tried to stop it being made, citing market research "the public don't like pirate movies" because they had some previous adventure movie flops. When the board at Disney were persuaded to fund it (which included tieing it in with the ride), they tried to shut down production a couple times and even suggesting firing Johnny Depp because his character was 'too strange'.

Of course, when the movie got made, everyone loved it because it was great fun and unexpected. What about that market research that said it would be a huge failure? The moment it became a success, it was 'well done' to the board that was determined to stop it getting made. The next thing you know, it gets turned into another never-ending franchise until it too has run out of steam. If the original movie was a rare case of an original idea slipping through the net, imagine how many other potential successes were cancelled?

 

The reason these don't get made by big companies is because, like all good ideas, it carries a degree of risk. Inflated business at the level Merlin has grown to requires ALL risk to be removed. IPs have little to do with trying to entertain people more, more to do with this no-risk, short term growth. I'm not against good business, I want the whole UK industry to make good business (which it certainly isn't doing with Merlin's dominance), but taking healthy risk is a fundamental part of good business.

Also, the main thing that working in UK attractions over the years and visiting more parks abroad has shown me, it's that people still do respond the same to good entertainment as they did when I was young, they don't actively ask for it, but give them a surprise or pull off a good idea well and they do enjoy really it. This is worth so much more than a patchwork park of IPs, which they will be drawn to in bigger numbers in a shorter space of time, but ultimately isn't sustainable and is just part of the franchise game.

[Hocus Pocus Hall]

"Merlin still about originality" With respect, this couldnt be further from Merlin's real intentions and procedures. Sorry for the looong post!

Merlin started off buying already-successful attractions and turning them into formualted  'IPs' (The Dungeons brand, the Sea Life brand, the 'Eye' brand, etc) so that they could be cheaply copied all over the world. So it makes sense that now they are trying to seek other brands too. They now stipulate dark rides have IPs and that they grow their "IP portfolio" every year. Merlin – the parent company, not their parks (much to Merlin's annoyance) – were never about originality or entertainment.

2 hours ago, Mark9 said:

TLDR, IP's shouldn't be feared or seen as death of originality in theme parks. 

Nick Varney has never stopped talking about brands and IPs in this way since Merlin began. So not the death of originality, but we've already a huge decline in creativity, entertainment and value for money. In his own words, "IPs are the future of theme parks", and if you don't think so, you're wrong, he says. Therefore, so long as this is belived, I do see the death of (most) originality at Merlin owned parks.
 

When you licence an IP, you are bound to design only within the parameters given by those who own the IP. It's a fundamentally different process to creating an attraction for the sake of entertainment business. You're no longer creating business out of how good your entertainment offering is. Instead you're making a deal – I'll use your already successful 'brand' to guarantee my own success regardless of what I make, while I pay you money for it.

So the entertainment is completely secondary, and that's what the entertainment industry is understandably irked by.

It's dark rides that suffer the most from this model, the (completely wrong) assumption that any dark ride 'WILL fail' if it doesn't have an IP, based completely on assumption by people who have no experience with entertaining people whatsoever. We already have a public who are more easily beguiled by massive global marketing, which isn't actually interested in entertaining people at all.

Whenever parks appear in conversation with people I chat to, it's an expectation that theme parks are just based off movies and TV shows, that they're just an extension of 'franchises'. This wasn't the case when I was young and the families I used to visit parks with. There are always exceptions, but honestly I don't like the expectation that kids should just respond to the biggest brands they see on TV, rather than be surprised and imaginative.

Also, there's no identity if a park like Chessington becomes a patchwork of fad IPs and declined (once fantastic) old rides. It just becomes a competition of whose brands are bigger, which is why Legoland Windsor wins, despite being currently the worst value family park in the UK.

I'm only grateful that so far it's turned out alright, with IPs that suit. Gruffalo is charming for a British family park, not like the other IPs that were considered for it...  This is the work of the people having to deal with the stipulation to use IPs, in finding the least-worst option, or designing the most creative solution around the limitations. Cbeebies Land is the cheapest, nastiest, falling-apart IP refurb I have ever known in a UK park. But even then, the designers tried their best with what they got.

Personally I like the look of the new Hocus Pocus plans so far. It seems like this IP is less restricting to design than usual, so really it could be any walkaround but just has the Gruffalo name and characters slapped on top. But again, we almost got a different IP refurb this year, which thankfully was persuaded against.

2 hours ago, Mark9 said:

Look at The Wicker Man or The Swarm and I'll thrown in the recent refurbishments of Runaway Train into Scorpion Express and Dragon Falls into Tiger Rock as examples of where Merlin actually on the whole get things pretty right when it comes to rides and attractions.

Tiger Rock had a cool station overlay and new drop, but the rest was the last thing the ride needed. It had been in a shocking state for years, but no money was allowed to be granted until the "zoo brand" quota could be ticked. This isn't how you properly develop a great zoo or a great park. And if not zoo theme, then it must have an IP! Nothing else will get approved.

Scorpion Express was done with a tiny budget and is not nearly as entertaining as the original ride. A tarmac queue, dead scorpions, a standard coaster on flat ground, a cool theme but much less of it than before. The Swarm is drab and a very stingy realisation of what could have been a great area. I don't think any one is actually that entertained by the theme, but enthusiasts like it because it had that enthusiast appeal, so fair enough to them. The ambulance on its nose is the best moment, something memorable and not just a scrap vehicle parked on a pavement with some cheap water effects.

Wicker Man was great, very entertaining, surprising and made for a great themed coaster. Fantastic! Everyone loves it and the public really get into it with the build-up to the ride. A great turn for the better. But then Merlin immediately hand the park "Alton Towers Dungeons" the next year.

['I'm a Celebrity' Maze]

5 hours ago, Marc said:

probably made it back in its fastrack sales

Fair enough that you were replying to a post about money and resources rather than entertainment value, but when bad attractions need to be justified by fastrack sales you know somethings wrong. Fastrack is a scam that shouldnt need to even exist. Attractions should make good business out of good entertainment (I'm sure you agree, but just saying)

[Colossus]

Colossus is not a nice ride experience but it's a thrilling coaster, best enjoyed with gritted teeth. I can see why people hate it, but if you go in knowing what to expect it's still a fun ride.

Some new trains are much needed in the future, the faff and lack of room seriously slows down loading and is very uncomfortable, but this was a design oversight from the start really. Would be very wise of Thorpe Park to commission new trains, even if it cost a lot to prototype them, if they want the ride to continue for decades to come.

Or would the ride have had its day in 15-20 years anyway? Since it was only really designed to break the record and shift Thorpe Park to a thrill park, which it's well known for now and could maybe use the space for a better looping coaster? It's worth a few more years though I'm sure!

[Vampire]

Ive not heard it in there myself but remember well the effect the audio used to have, hopefully is just yet to be tweaked (the ride had almost no winter period) than left in a half-done state.

Great that it's now looping properly, has the SFX back and no longer sounds like an awful warbled recording. But why did it ever get in such a bad state in the first place? Complete carelessness.

Although I'm not sure that rubbish phone recording really gives any accurate impression of how it sounded, other than showing the original mix and sound effects. But it definitely used to sound suitably loud and really fun, which it needs back.

[Vampire]

17 hours ago, Coaster said:

This video isn't even when it was at its best, but the difference in how the soundtrack sounds there and now is massive.

A genuine question, have you visited this winter? The original soundtrack has been restored and the bad cassette recording is finally gone.

Not to its orginal 1990 state with the corridor audio and zoned organ, but definitely to how it was at the time that video clip was recorded, the way it was in the 2000s.
If you have visited this month and think it still sounds bad, it may be more to do with the aging state of the sound system, or that it needs tweaking now that the original audio is back.

 

Although I still think having the same music outdoors on those PA speakers numbs the impact of hearing it the first time in the station, hopefully they will change this to an ambient track outdoors.

 

1 hour ago, JoshC. said:

This is one of the benefits, from a thematic storytelling perspective, of having attractions themed to IPs, since it means no other brands can advertise in that space.

IPs are purely for business purposes and really nothing to do with thematic storytelling. The motorway service station type ads in Chessington's queue are super tacky, gives a really commercial impression about the park. Yuck!

[Blackpool Pleasure Beach]

1 hour ago, JoshC. said:

As a general commentary though, it's funny seeing people express concern about Icon's lack of instant success. It's well known Merlin follow the thought process of 'any (major) new ride needs to be an instant hit'. And many people mock that philosophy. Yet when a different park does something which isn't an instant success, and very easily could be a long term success, people panic.

It's true all major new attractions need to see a decent return, because of their huge cost if anything. But I suppose the difference is Merlin invest only for instant hits, they never invest in the value of the actual park, beyond basic maintenance.

Big money gets invested in headline rides, anything else is sidelined. So other than new rides, the state of their parks is pretty poor, including not investing in proper operations to keep queues down and generally not creating a place to be. Then their new rides are also left to decline once they've stopped serving that instant return. Even when new land is added like the Swarm's island expansion, it's just a minimal dead-end, when it had opportunity to add much needed value to the park and create more throughfare.

 

This stuff all has an impact on guests experience. But Merlin's marketing depts still think yet another quick 'rebrand' with new signs, music and logos will do the trick, instead of proper long term investment.

Icon at Blackpool was more beneficial to the park's overall value I feel, as well as a headline attraction for that year. It should have been advertised more (beyond the previs videos on BBC that made it look boring!), but it adds a modern element to the park's offering, making the Pleasure Beach a much more rounded day out.

I hope BPB sees increasing appeal from here on and gets back on track, but it won't if it lets the momentum die.

Looking at parks abroad that began the same way as Thorpe Park in the 70s/80s, you can see how they've taken a much more holistic approach over their history and today are altogether much better places to visit. But Thorpe Park has become so confused by cheap rehashes and short term investments, that I feel it doesnt deliver a solid appeal with many people anymore.  Other than Derren Brown, which was probably intended to be a long term investment in the park, but because of its bad development it ended up so esoteric, with costs so out of proportion to its actual entertainment factor.

I agree that stronger focus on good events would really help the park. Fright Nights still excites a lot of people in the region, but then why is it getting worse each year? Why is it advertised so much, but then so minimal in reality? You could have a far better Halloween event almost anywhere else, like the brilliant events at farm parks as mentioned earlier. You actually need to put the focus on entertainment for once, instead of the lazy minimal approach currently.

[TPM Awards 2018 - The Winners]

Ahh thanks for voting me, didnt realise people liked my posts that much, will try keep it good in that case! Haha

[Logger's Leap]

6 hours ago, Vince800 said:

it doesn't have any of the mods which were made to Dragon Falls some years back. It still has for example the crude (for the present day) evacuation steps on the lift hill (which he partially walks down in the video). On Dragon Falls, these were replaced with the much more sturdy and safe metal steps as well as evacuation platforms throughout the ride. I think it's no coincidence that Loggers & the Flume closed around the same time that Dragon Falls had these mods done to it being as they are the same type of flume. In the case of the flume they were going to be removing it anyway and with Loggers, I guess they're just not sure what the plans are at the moment.

How about all the other Mack log flumes around the world that don't have these modifications? They're still able to keep operating fine.

The evac steps on Falls were mostly done because evacuations became so frequent on that ride (because it was knackared, through years of dodgy maintenance all adding up) that it gave a terrible impression to guests and were not suited to regular evac use. The original steps were clearly designed more for general access. That's also why the gantry was added to where boats stack coming back to the station, because so many guests were needing to 'boat hop'.

Merlin would rather brush as much under the carpet as they can, and only when they fear a video going online of 'OMG evacd from wooden steps up 100ft on dangerous water ride!!!!' will they spend money like that. Loggers could have had the cash granted to make any adaptions they thought necessary, but it got mothballed instead.

[Logger's Leap]

4 hours ago, Ivsetti said:

As someone that's never ridden the ride what was the ride like that makes it so special (or is it just sentimental value)?

It was one of the most entertaining attractions on park and the park's best family attraction.

Not intense like the coasters, but definitely one of the most all-round entertaining, probably my favourite log flume in the UK after Dragon Falls had all its theme destroyed. It took a really good route round a part the park you never see now and had two thrilling drops.

Also regardless of what us think as young adult enthusiasts, it was a big part of Thorpe's family line up which they are now desperate for. And trying to hide that a ride has been removed from the lineup the way they did with Loggers and Alton Towers did with Charlie, by saying it is 'being redeveloped' is clearly very bad practice.

[Logger's Leap]

Thanks! By the way apologies if my language seemed 'personally' attacking, I dont care about what these people are like in person, only their professional involvement with the park and 'enthusiast' influence. I hope the post makes clear the reasons why, Thorpe needs something to save it from the way it's going and the current direction just isnt it.

[Nemesis Inferno]

It's fantastic to see effects fixed around the ride like the foggers and the geysers that I've rarely ever seen working in person (and never synched with the ride as intended), a very cool effect!

[Vampire]

its a cool video, so funny to see staff larking about on the ride's supposed closing down day. A couple pretty strange things in there if you watch the whole thing, haha!

Shame it doesnt show the station under the show lighting but even in work lights, shows how fallen the brilliant station is now. People said Wicker Man set an amazing standard for a themed coaster in Britain  (which it did) – but truly Chessington had it even better years ago with this incredible Vampire queue and preshow!

[Logger's Leap]

The unprofessionalism all round from Thorpe Park is shocking. And no offence but it's pretty embarassing to see a self-appointed theme park 'personality' seemingly using their job at Thorpe Park as self validation for their inflated enthusiast opions.

 

I know many enthusiasts (in the real sense of the word, not this enthusiast "community" cult  ideology) who are extremely hard working and have been in the attraction industry for years. They make it all happen to entertain others, they dont get any wider recognition and they dont seek it either. Whereas this Jordan character trying to get PR attention at any opportunity, the tweets, that dumb enthusiast awards thing and many other enthusiast cliques, seem to be far more interested in themselves than working in entertainment. Or getting their enthusiast friends 'in' behind the scenes so they can boast about themselves too.

Thorpe Park needs to get back to basics, get back in touch with the public (especially if it's wanting to go for families more like it says it does) and offer a good value day out. Not a day in a tarmac car park sponsored by a hundred fads, with signs constantly reminding you you're on "the island" (whoops, you built over most views of the water years ago!), and then getting egotists to tell others why they're wrong online.
 

Theme parks are really just about having a laugh out with friends, with a day of fun.  Isn't that what we all got into it for?

People behind the scenes need to be open minded, less self congratulatory and sort the park out properly. But I guess massively glamorising the 'brand' to the point that it bears no resemblance to the park is what they're better at and all they're interested in currently.

[Logger's Leap]

I dont want to sound like an angry vox pop but I feel like it's justified here after the continued unprofessional attitude from Thorpe Park

 

Absolutely ridiculous that park doesnt just come out and say "Loggers Leap is closed". How hard is that? The moment Loggers Leap closed it got glossed over by people either too over-optimistic on what to expect from Merlin, or who were doing it to save bad press. While it probably could have been refurbished as necessary and reopened (like any other park would), this just isn't Merlin's track record.

 

No surprise to everybody that it's sat there for years seizing up and much is now probably beyond reasonable repair. So just tell your customers Thorpe Park, the ride is closed. It's the least you could do! You've only created far, far worse response by trying to shove your biggest family attraction under the carpet.

And now this tweet, probably because the park is such a joke at the moment that its own staff find it funny (I would). It needs a proper sort out this place.

[Blackpool Pleasure Beach]

On 11/15/2018 at 7:42 PM, Marc said:

no probelm atall with brands having abit of a personality online!

It's better than your usual corporate scripted response. But is pretty annoying when it's very try-hard. Who wants their favourite park embodying a Tumblr blogger? It's pretty fake and is only there because it's the trendy thing to do.

[SAFARI SKYWAY - Real reason it closed......]

Awww I wanted to know about the time the train derailed and flew around the park smashing everything in it's path, but the park conspired to cover up the story and pretend it was about money or rubbish maintenance instead.

[Europa Park]

I love how bizarre and unnecessary yet brilliant this is

[Hocus Pocus Hall]

On 10/10/2018 at 8:56 AM, Mark9 said:

I remember the hate for Gruffalo when that was announced and it turned out to be a vast improvement on what had gone before and a great ride.

 

Sometimes it's utterly miserable being here, especially when reading anything coming in the future. Fright Nights also got an absolute mauling for weeks before the event but oh look, everybody is having a great time.

Think you're getting a very skew impression of enthusiasts online from a relatively small representation, or online exaggerations. Enthusiasts on the whole don't hate theme parks, unless they're very confused and getting themselves wound up. It's because these parks could be fantastic today and so much more than the way Merlin develop/run them.

In the wider picture, I think it's clear that a park made up of a patchwork of IPs and underwhelming attractions will make for a very commercial feeling, mediocre day out. Merlin do it because they don't care about parks long term or even mid term. They just want whatever cheapest option can be used to boost sales that year.

If guests respond better to cheap attractions cloaked by a well-known IP slapped on top, then that only makes a case for the decline of the theme park industry. Been shown over and over again that there's much greater value in originality for parks and guests in the long term.

The Merlin parks are fast becoming quite esoteric in terms of actual entertainment, relying on growing a 'Merlin brand' following with the beguiled public, rather than simply entertaining guests and giving them a good experience.

Europa's IPs you mention are either very self-contained areas (Arthur) that actually live up to the IP, or are very minor attractions. They don't make up sizeable parts of the park or replace classic attractions with IPs at every opportunity.

Also I think in the bigger picture, enthusiasts were glad to see IL Bubbleworks go and had actually been wanting a replacement for years. It was appauling that IL Bubbleworks ever happened to Prof Burp's in the first place. And that thank god Gruffalo was a good ride in the end, if dull for what a family dark ride could be. Room On The Broom will probably be similar.

[Vampire]

23 hours ago, A Lost Zookeeper said:

Sadly its not really by choice that things like the organist fall into disrepair. Unlike Disney and Universal, Merlin Parks don't have a huge budget for fixing up themselves. Unless its attached to a new project or an IP, there is no push for things like that to get done as it is not going to attract any more guests. Not many guests complain or even notice how things aren't working. ... It should be something they do regardless of if it will attract more guests. However that is not the way Merlin parks are organised and set up at the moment.

The Disney / Universal are the biggest, wealthiest entertainment companies on the planet and are also in competition with each other, so I wouldnt say that's a fair example. It needn't be as good standards as Disney, it just has to be decent.

A better comparison would be the likes of Europa Park, Efteling, Phantasialand, which are all run by companies infinitely smaller than Merlin, but they maintain their parks fantastically. A trip there costs you about the same as a Merlin park but is infinitely better value.

True it's not Chessington's choice that they get no budget or structure for this kind of maintenance, it is Merlin's method. Like you say, if it isn't able to be rebranded then they just don't care, this is their strategy. Even with new rides, once the press launch is over they rapidly stop caring. It's not the attitude of a real entertainment company interested in return customers and long term benefits for their parks.

However, Chessington is particularly bad at maintaining its effects and attractions, compared to Alton Towers for example. Sometimes it feels like, top down, Chessington are totally unaware that audio, lighting, etc even makes a jot of difference to guests.

You would very soon notice the difference in guests' reactions if these attractions as good as they were originally. The fact that "not many" of them actively complain about specifics is true but not really a valid reason to not maintain something. Why should it be the guests' perogetive to know the details of lighting, sound, animation, etc? They are paying for a good experience and instead getting a sub par overall experience.

IL Bubbleworks had plenty of regular complaints about how poor it was long before it got removed, nothing was done about it for years until they could get a new brand in. Also, the fact the park looked shabby and run down for years was a frequent online complaint from your average guests, but all that happened was they got the local painter decorators in to paint one facade per year.

The only excuse Merlin have is they can just hype up the brand and monopolise the UK market so nobody knows the parks could be any better.

[Vampire]

13 hours ago, Vampire3000 said:

What even is the graveyard canopy / crypt which was “removed” on the Vampire. Are there any pictures of it?

It was a cool themed part of the queue, under a canopy covered in ivy and fog. You'd walk between tombs and past grave plaques on the wall. It hid the ugly building from view as you walked in and made the space feel very different to the horrible concrete square. There used to be bat sounds from the rafters.

Then you'd head into the dark tunnel with the flickering lanterns and windows, which used to have choir and tolling bells echoing inside.
There was also a simple pepper's ghost effect in one of the windows which hasnt worked properly for years, and more detail/better lighting behind the windows.

This was before they started batching before the station too, it was much creepier when you used to queue in it rather than breeze straight through.

I remember it being a classic build up to the grand station, but declined massively over time (bad maintenance as usual). It just feels like walking into a tin box now, since like any ride the effect was all in the sound, lighting & scenery..

[Fright Nights 2018 - Spoiler Thread]

Unprofessionalism from many people at the park this year.  Certain people predictably still obsessed with using theme parks to further their careers and trying to earn status amongst fans then.

Would theme park 'personalities' please stop trying to be the Fright Nights mascot. In reality, a huge amount of collaboration and differnt teams go into putting on these events, most the work never gets seen – because what matters is the end result. But when people start going online to claim "hey I've done this, it's mine, enjoy my work everyone" then you know what people's real agendas were.

Fright Nights this year is clearly very poor, perhaps budget from the lords above was a big factor in that. Either way it's a bit sad to see we've got to a state where the people involved in an event and their mates come on to a forum to tell people how clever and smart their work actually is.

A bit like when we had Bradley Wynne tell people on Facebook how actually clever Derren Brown's Ghost Train was and how its "supposed" to be disjointed. That's not the point when the end result just doesnt entertain.

I'd wish Thorpe Park all the best for next year and hope it goes better. The park needed a really strong Halloween event this year and just didn't manage it.

[Vampire]

Anything will be better than what's currently there, because the park have been using the same dodgy mp3 that you used to hear all over YouTube since the change a couple years ago.

Very silly when Vampire used to look and sound so fantastic. It's like if Wicker Man's audio was 'lost' and replaced by a bad quality download in 10 years time and all the lighting and scenery stripped out with no replacement. Very careless and unprofessional.

The vampire station needs a lot more than just a change of soundtrack though. It needs all the speakers repaired and the dead spots fixed, and really just a total overhaul of the station now that it's become incredibly bare.

[Legoland]

There are plenty better locations than this for the attraction. Year on year Legoland loses its lush setting and any respite between the loud/crowded areas by building over every single landscaped patch possible. There will soon be no transition, just big attractions squashed in next to each other. That area by the driving school is already extremely crowded. The train also runs right behind the warehouse.

 

Very typically cheap of Merlin to just leave the rear end exposed too – Legoland didn't do that with the Dragon castle 20 years ago and that was when the park was much smaller.

[2018 General Discussion]

On 13/03/2018 at 3:00 PM, StevenVig said:

This is what it will look like permanently

"I hate nitpickers" lol