mrmonkey

Is it too much to expect the same park to be as good as it was 20-30 years ago, especially for such a basic investment as a small childrens area retheme? Especially when prices have generally gone up

The only idea that came to me was an Egyptian themed coaster - finally giving the pyramid building some context - have the maze-like queue catacomb passages,archeological digs etc - then basically use the existing coaster to create a poor-mans 'Revenge of the mummy' - using similar effects they have at the moment but with a mummy-theme - smoke blasts , mummy animatronics etc 

Such a pretty park, I really do love this park, and can't help feeling in an alternative universe Thorpe could have ended up more like this (maritime exhibits, vintage attractions, gardens, architectural facades, family feel etc) They even have an onsite woodcarver and signwriter that you can look in on (last picture).

Such a pretty park, I really do love this park, and can't help feeling in an alternative universe Thorpe could have ended up more like this (maritime exhibits, vintage attractions, gardens, architectural facades, family feel etc) They even have an onsite woodcarver and signwriter that you can look in on (last picture).

Thorpe's almost too far gone for me! there's so much I'd want to scrap and start again lol! So much of it isn't my taste anymore.   Thematically and stylistically I'd go for something between Toverland and Hansa Park,  and re-instate a more Nautical aesthetic 
 
Remodel and extend Rhumba Rapids - using some of land/lakeland area behind it towards the old  treasure island site - It would be super themed and include a drop - and would be the first rapids in the Uk to feature a drop, think infinity falls at Seaworld - but engineered to be not so wet for this British climate!
 
Scrap tidalwave and build a PULSAR (Walibi Belgium) clone in its place with an old victorian waterworks steampunk/industrial theme. Retheme Stealth to a steampunk, rocket/teslar theme
 
Get rid of the 4D theatre and install a themed funhouse in its building aka Hotel Tartuf/Fiasco  
 
Scrap Colossus, walking dead, DBGT and storm surge, samurai, detonator, Angry birds land, jungle escape, Quantum etc etc.
 
  Replace Colossus with a new-gen Vekoma such as Lech coaster! 
 
Re-theme the old Canada Creek area to 'Sherwood forest' re-open loggers leap, create a medieval village, re-theme SAW to a castles and turrets/torture Chamber theme like Fluch Von Novgorod at Hansa Park, also install a next gen steeplechase coaster themed to jousting, as well as a high ropes course themed to Robin hoods hideout etc. 
 
Re-theme Swarm to 'dragon-fly' with a huge thatched station - with a much more 'natural' and whimsical themed area, taking inspiration from Toverlands 'Avalon' area and taking advantage of the lakeside setting!
 
Build an out-and-back B&M hyper-coaster that extends over the bridge and along the the side of the car-park skirting the lake and back - in a similar way Silver star does 
 
Build an RMC at some point! 
 
Finally build that hotel on the lakes edge where the old cement works used to be including a waterpark similar to Plopsaqua 
 
 

Successful parks with no or minimal IP :- Efteling, Europa (has some carefully considered and integrated IPs), Toverland, Phantasialand, Hansa Park, Tivoli Gardens, Grona Lund, Lisberg to name a few
 
I have nothing against IPs in theme parks in theory - I mean I love Disney parks which are one giant IP BUT there is a Balance, and I don't think the future is or has to be IP based just in the same way virtual reality isn't becoming the way forward in theme parks either. 
 
IP's work well when they are considered and integrated and carefully chosen - such as Arthur at Europa - I haven't even seen the movie its based off - yet it's one of my all time favourite rides - because the IP is so visually strong, and had huge scope for immersion. 
 
I personally feel Merlin are taking many missteps because they are concentrating on throw-away IPs, with everything done from a marketing perspective as apposed to a design perspective, nothings done for the long-haul.
They are also letting old areas and rides rot, with minimal spending to maintain the rest of the parks to create a Value WHOLE experience for its guests, they are constantly removing value as apposed to adding to it (theming, detail, quality signage, planting etc etc). 
 
Also where has the distinct themed 'lands' concept gone? - Gruffalo in 'Transalvania' (dark forest I know, I know) and DBGT next to I'm a celebrity next to Walking dead at Thorpe. Chessington is loosing it's 'ADVENTURE' in its namesake!
 
And I know originality and Imagination isn't dead - because all you have to do is look to Europe, Even Parc Asterix, which is one huge IP Integrates original ideas INTO its IP! I still experience the same sense of magic visiting certain parks that I did as a kid at Chessington in the 90's, it really has nothing to do with age! That's what I feel is lost - any sense of magic at Merlin parks. 
 
Theme parks used to be places to Excite and inspire the imagination - not have it spelled out for you in very generic, Homogenised ways, they were there to be an alternative to television and media - not an extension of them! 
 
However at the end of the day I can UNDERSTAND Merlin, because they are a different type of business to say Hansa park which is Family owned. Merlin is a money making machine I get that, however I can state how disappointed I am with Merlins product, and still believe they would still thrive if they where run under differing management perspectives with a more design and quality based ethos! but they have their ethos that must be working for them ££ wise so.........
 
 
                                                                           
 

Successful parks with no or minimal IP :- Efteling, Europa (has some carefully considered and integrated IPs), Toverland, Phantasialand, Hansa Park, Tivoli Gardens, Grona Lund, Lisberg to name a few
 
I have nothing against IPs in theme parks in theory - I mean I love Disney parks which are one giant IP BUT there is a Balance, and I don't think the future is or has to be IP based just in the same way virtual reality isn't becoming the way forward in theme parks either. 
 
IP's work well when they are considered and integrated and carefully chosen - such as Arthur at Europa - I haven't even seen the movie its based off - yet it's one of my all time favourite rides - because the IP is so visually strong, and had huge scope for immersion. 
 
I personally feel Merlin are taking many missteps because they are concentrating on throw-away IPs, with everything done from a marketing perspective as apposed to a design perspective, nothings done for the long-haul.
They are also letting old areas and rides rot, with minimal spending to maintain the rest of the parks to create a Value WHOLE experience for its guests, they are constantly removing value as apposed to adding to it (theming, detail, quality signage, planting etc etc). 
 
Also where has the distinct themed 'lands' concept gone? - Gruffalo in 'Transalvania' (dark forest I know, I know) and DBGT next to I'm a celebrity next to Walking dead at Thorpe. Chessington is loosing it's 'ADVENTURE' in its namesake!
 
And I know originality and Imagination isn't dead - because all you have to do is look to Europe, Even Parc Asterix, which is one huge IP Integrates original ideas INTO its IP! I still experience the same sense of magic visiting certain parks that I did as a kid at Chessington in the 90's, it really has nothing to do with age! That's what I feel is lost - any sense of magic at Merlin parks. 
 
Theme parks used to be places to Excite and inspire the imagination - not have it spelled out for you in very generic, Homogenised ways, they were there to be an alternative to television and media - not an extension of them! 
 
However at the end of the day I can UNDERSTAND Merlin, because they are a different type of business to say Hansa park which is Family owned. Merlin is a money making machine I get that, however I can state how disappointed I am with Merlins product, and still believe they would still thrive if they where run under differing management perspectives with a more design and quality based ethos! but they have their ethos that must be working for them ££ wise so.........
 
 
                                                                           
 

Analysts sifted through more than 550,000 customer reviews of around 100 Merlin attractions. They also examined a monitor that tracks average queue times at theme parks.

They found a continued decline in average reviews across Merlin’s Midway Attractions brands, which include the Blackpool Tower and Sea Life Centres.

Merlin also operates Legoland and resort theme parks including Alton Towers, Chessington and Thorpe Park.

UBS raised the alarm six months after it first expressed concern about increasingly negative reviews at the company’s city centre sites.

“We now have greater concerns that this trend could be the result of poor investment and operational decisions, with cost-cutting and a focus on new business development potentially leaving the core profit drivers of Midway under resourced,” the analysts said, as they hung a “sell” sign over the stock.

They have also turned bearish on Legoland. While conceding its strong brand and potential for roll-out in markets such as China, they cited weak like-for-like growth in 2018 and a significant decline in average reviews at Legoland Windsor. Dampening investors’ hopes of a recovery, the note sent Merlin shares down 17¼p, or 5 per cent, to 327¼p.
 
another similar article here:-
https://www.proactiveinvestors.co.uk/companies/news/212322/merlin-entertainments-skids-lower-as-ubs-cuts-its-rating-target-and-estimates-on-concerns-over-midway-customer-review-data-212322.html?fbclid=IwAR2H2CX85q7Ibz-JiHGDh0b_kKiFG1NICaVsjTuHhVLub4vPW3h6I9e4MNA

Successful parks with no or minimal IP :- Efteling, Europa (has some carefully considered and integrated IPs), Toverland, Phantasialand, Hansa Park, Tivoli Gardens, Grona Lund, Lisberg to name a few
 
I have nothing against IPs in theme parks in theory - I mean I love Disney parks which are one giant IP BUT there is a Balance, and I don't think the future is or has to be IP based just in the same way virtual reality isn't becoming the way forward in theme parks either. 
 
IP's work well when they are considered and integrated and carefully chosen - such as Arthur at Europa - I haven't even seen the movie its based off - yet it's one of my all time favourite rides - because the IP is so visually strong, and had huge scope for immersion. 
 
I personally feel Merlin are taking many missteps because they are concentrating on throw-away IPs, with everything done from a marketing perspective as apposed to a design perspective, nothings done for the long-haul.
They are also letting old areas and rides rot, with minimal spending to maintain the rest of the parks to create a Value WHOLE experience for its guests, they are constantly removing value as apposed to adding to it (theming, detail, quality signage, planting etc etc). 
 
Also where has the distinct themed 'lands' concept gone? - Gruffalo in 'Transalvania' (dark forest I know, I know) and DBGT next to I'm a celebrity next to Walking dead at Thorpe. Chessington is loosing it's 'ADVENTURE' in its namesake!
 
And I know originality and Imagination isn't dead - because all you have to do is look to Europe, Even Parc Asterix, which is one huge IP Integrates original ideas INTO its IP! I still experience the same sense of magic visiting certain parks that I did as a kid at Chessington in the 90's, it really has nothing to do with age! That's what I feel is lost - any sense of magic at Merlin parks. 
 
Theme parks used to be places to Excite and inspire the imagination - not have it spelled out for you in very generic, Homogenised ways, they were there to be an alternative to television and media - not an extension of them! 
 
However at the end of the day I can UNDERSTAND Merlin, because they are a different type of business to say Hansa park which is Family owned. Merlin is a money making machine I get that, however I can state how disappointed I am with Merlins product, and still believe they would still thrive if they where run under differing management perspectives with a more design and quality based ethos! but they have their ethos that must be working for them ££ wise so.........
 
 
                                                                           
 

Successful parks with no or minimal IP :- Efteling, Europa (has some carefully considered and integrated IPs), Toverland, Phantasialand, Hansa Park, Tivoli Gardens, Grona Lund, Lisberg to name a few
 
I have nothing against IPs in theme parks in theory - I mean I love Disney parks which are one giant IP BUT there is a Balance, and I don't think the future is or has to be IP based just in the same way virtual reality isn't becoming the way forward in theme parks either. 
 
IP's work well when they are considered and integrated and carefully chosen - such as Arthur at Europa - I haven't even seen the movie its based off - yet it's one of my all time favourite rides - because the IP is so visually strong, and had huge scope for immersion. 
 
I personally feel Merlin are taking many missteps because they are concentrating on throw-away IPs, with everything done from a marketing perspective as apposed to a design perspective, nothings done for the long-haul.
They are also letting old areas and rides rot, with minimal spending to maintain the rest of the parks to create a Value WHOLE experience for its guests, they are constantly removing value as apposed to adding to it (theming, detail, quality signage, planting etc etc). 
 
Also where has the distinct themed 'lands' concept gone? - Gruffalo in 'Transalvania' (dark forest I know, I know) and DBGT next to I'm a celebrity next to Walking dead at Thorpe. Chessington is loosing it's 'ADVENTURE' in its namesake!
 
And I know originality and Imagination isn't dead - because all you have to do is look to Europe, Even Parc Asterix, which is one huge IP Integrates original ideas INTO its IP! I still experience the same sense of magic visiting certain parks that I did as a kid at Chessington in the 90's, it really has nothing to do with age! That's what I feel is lost - any sense of magic at Merlin parks. 
 
Theme parks used to be places to Excite and inspire the imagination - not have it spelled out for you in very generic, Homogenised ways, they were there to be an alternative to television and media - not an extension of them! 
 
However at the end of the day I can UNDERSTAND Merlin, because they are a different type of business to say Hansa park which is Family owned. Merlin is a money making machine I get that, however I can state how disappointed I am with Merlins product, and still believe they would still thrive if they where run under differing management perspectives with a more design and quality based ethos! but they have their ethos that must be working for them ££ wise so.........
 
 
                                                                           
 

Analysts sifted through more than 550,000 customer reviews of around 100 Merlin attractions. They also examined a monitor that tracks average queue times at theme parks.

They found a continued decline in average reviews across Merlin’s Midway Attractions brands, which include the Blackpool Tower and Sea Life Centres.

Merlin also operates Legoland and resort theme parks including Alton Towers, Chessington and Thorpe Park.

UBS raised the alarm six months after it first expressed concern about increasingly negative reviews at the company’s city centre sites.

“We now have greater concerns that this trend could be the result of poor investment and operational decisions, with cost-cutting and a focus on new business development potentially leaving the core profit drivers of Midway under resourced,” the analysts said, as they hung a “sell” sign over the stock.

They have also turned bearish on Legoland. While conceding its strong brand and potential for roll-out in markets such as China, they cited weak like-for-like growth in 2018 and a significant decline in average reviews at Legoland Windsor. Dampening investors’ hopes of a recovery, the note sent Merlin shares down 17¼p, or 5 per cent, to 327¼p.
 
another similar article here:-
https://www.proactiveinvestors.co.uk/companies/news/212322/merlin-entertainments-skids-lower-as-ubs-cuts-its-rating-target-and-estimates-on-concerns-over-midway-customer-review-data-212322.html?fbclid=IwAR2H2CX85q7Ibz-JiHGDh0b_kKiFG1NICaVsjTuHhVLub4vPW3h6I9e4MNA

relevant too:-
 
 
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/merlin-dips-amid-concern-it-could-be-losing-its-spell-pggwtqk5j

They're not responding to a natural change. They are constructing a change to suit their business model best, or at least following the commercialism started by other entertainment giants. It's the McDonalds 'clone and conquer' model that has been around for decades, only now it's happening to theme parks outside of Disney.

Merlin and others have systematically changed the theme park industry to be what suits their business model best. This includes running a monopoly in the UK, so that they can squeezing people's salaries, strip out value for money, charge higher, and give unfair contracts to attraction industry contractors who have few other businesses to work for in the UK.

All I "liked the theme park industry to be" is entertaining and something unique, not just a commercial extension of pre-existing franchises and a highly marketed tourist trap machine. This is exactly the same as how I feel about the movie industry and music industry today, the only difference with those being that there is far more selection to chose from and great music/movies can still be made on low-medium budgets (even of kinds I don't have a taste for, it doesn't matter, as long as they can still be made). But you can't make a theme park on a budget smaller than several million.

In their quest for massive growth in the shortest time possible, the only thing that suits Merlin's model is growing a quota of IPs. Then pumping huge amounts into marketing manipulation, to get people to pay more for less and go for brand over value. That's really all there is behind their decisions.

It's a negative on the whole industry, not just my personal preference. You say all parks are adapting towards this, but many hugely successful parks around the world show the enormous benefits of going for long-term value than short term fads.

Take a look at one of the most successful 'new' franchises in the last 25 years, Pirates of the Caribbean. The original movie was an idea that people were trying to get off the ground for years, but Disney actively tried to stop it being made, citing market research "the public don't like pirate movies" because they had some previous adventure movie flops. When the board at Disney were persuaded to fund it (which included tieing it in with the ride), they tried to shut down production a couple times and even suggesting firing Johnny Depp because his character was 'too strange'.

Of course, when the movie got made, everyone loved it because it was great fun and unexpected. What about that market research that said it would be a huge failure? The moment it became a success, it was 'well done' to the board that was determined to stop it getting made. The next thing you know, it gets turned into another never-ending franchise until it too has run out of steam. If the original movie was a rare case of an original idea slipping through the net, imagine how many other potential successes were cancelled?
 
The reason these don't get made by big companies is because, like all good ideas, it carries a degree of risk. Inflated business at the level Merlin has grown to requires ALL risk to be removed. IPs have little to do with trying to entertain people more, more to do with this no-risk, short term growth. I'm not against good business, I want the whole UK industry to make good business (which it certainly isn't doing with Merlin's dominance), but taking healthy risk is a fundamental part of good business.

Also, the main thing that working in UK attractions over the years and visiting more parks abroad has shown me, it's that people still do respond the same to good entertainment as they did when I was young, they don't actively ask for it, but give them a surprise or pull off a good idea well and they do enjoy really it. This is worth so much more than a patchwork park of IPs, which they will be drawn to in bigger numbers in a shorter space of time, but ultimately isn't sustainable and is just part of the franchise game.

Went the first time in Nov and fell I Love with Disneysea - it just has that atmospheric magic and sense of place that is in the air and palpable. The park itself is it's own 'mega-attraction' and what I mean by that is I could spend a full day there not doing a single ride, and I could still have a great day, soaking it in, exploring etc. 

I'm so sorry to hear this! Roodie is one of life's good guys! donated! My thoughts are with him and his family and friends. 

I would say about the international meet - As much as I love Phantasia - I think it's worth waiting till next year (2019) for F.L.Y.   I think an Efteling/Toverland combo would work really well. 

https://www.instagram.com/thorpepark1997to2003/ found a very interesting page on Instagram with quite a few pics of the park during the period 1997-2003

Just hope there are no trainee vets on here at the moment!

Another great video with some footage of Flying Fish, Teacup Twisters, Carousel Kingdom Soft Play, CCR and the Treasure Island railway and Pirate show.
 
 

Concept art for the new entrance...
 


 
Hopefully this is reflected in reality!
 

Warning - Spoilers!! 
 
Okay - I want to do do a full right up of my (our) day at Chessington at some point but in the meantime, heres what I thought of the Gruffalo:-
 
Considering I'm an old boy and remember the original Professor burbs Bubbleworks from within a season or 2 of it's opening, I am filled with sentimentality and a natural criticism of Modern Merlin and IP attractions. 
 
However:-
 
I really did enjoy the Gruffalo for what it was, I appreciated its newness and freshness and found this preferable to viewing a decaying classic - which previously just made me sad! 
This is now a stand-out piece of theme park immersion for the UK, The visuals and multi-sensory effects really excited me and drew me in, In particular the use of 'scent cannons' throughout the ride and a good balance between animatronics and projection effects! in particular I was impressed by the 'waterfall' effect which made use of projection onto textured scenery!  I experienced instant comparisons with Europa park's Arthur attraction, which can only be a good thing! 
 
A downside Is the obvious Dead-spots and blank walls, with no effort in some areas to hide Vents, Pipes, wires, electric plugs  and staff hatches! In other parks these would have been hidden with strategically placed screens, drapes, foliage etc - particularly when you look up and can see the warehouse corners! I think with the newer slower pace of the boats means you have longer to notice all of this - as well as it depending which way your facing - a case in point being the first scene  with the giant book - if you face the other way (viewing the rest of that room) - you see a badly painted blue wall! 
 
Some of the animatronics could have done with being a bit more complex too - I know the characters are cartoony - but a moving jaw here and there would have added to the whole and added a further dimension to the 'fibre-glassy' look of the figures! 
 
The thing that concerns me with the Gruffalo like with many other merlin attractions is - 'Is an attraction only as good as its first season' - once the effects start to stop working - the ride will quickly loose its magic - It only works so well due to the sum of all its effects working! 
 
Another thought was the last room - the 'finale' - this could do with a lot more 'magic' - something climatic - it just feels a bit 'meh' - all the best effects seem to have been used earlier in the ride! - saying that I loved the fog projection before re-entering the station! (how long will that work for). 
 
THE other problem is the rest of Chessington now needs to catch up with the Gruffalos level of Immersion! 
 
 

I thought this ride was a good addition to the UK theme park attraction line-up. It was very reminiscent of Maus au Chocolat - although not quite as good! I like the different approach to interactivity through using your hands - but have to say I think this technology could do with some improvements - It just didn't feel very responsive and felt quite frustrating - it's very confusing as to what is actually happening - and the visuals are just chaotic, it was also very tiring - I'm not sure how younger kids will cope with that aspect!..... it just didn't feel very satisfying - and at the end I was kind of exhausted and stressed lol! 
 
The carriages where very funky - and the multi-sensory effects where great - but maybe they could add more....maybe they will! also the lack of practical effects was obvious 

Generally I distrust Organised religion full stop - or ones with very fixed ideals and rules and rituals - life's too short for that! I'm quite a spiritual person - but the blinkered belief of some of the those that follow organised religion - just makes my blood run cold! 
 
Remember our history - and that we once burned one another at the stake for being Protestant vs Catholic and visa versa - if that's not organised terrorism then what is?
That might be 500 years ago, and certain religions such as Christianity have become more civilised in time - just remember they were JUST as barbaric! 
 
SOME muslims are very 'behind' by our modern western standards! And we need to live by those standards and promote our modern values, and keep promoting them! 
 
Can also just say say I'm sat in a cafe writing this.... and at the next table are a western white Scottish woman chatting and laughing opposite a muslim woman in her headscarf - obviously friends, ex-colleges or something - just two woman catching up!...... its such a simple scene.... but very symbolic! 
 
So don't go round saying all islam is evil! Some people have VERY backwards views yes...But Islam is an ancient religion - and there are billions of Muslims in the world - so We'd all be screwed/dead by now if they all truly did hate us and want us dead! 
 
I often see plenty of muslim families at theme parks I visit - they are like us, they love a day out.... the smiles on there faces are the same... remember that! 

Generally I distrust Organised religion full stop - or ones with very fixed ideals and rules and rituals - life's too short for that! I'm quite a spiritual person - but the blinkered belief of some of the those that follow organised religion - just makes my blood run cold! 
 
Remember our history - and that we once burned one another at the stake for being Protestant vs Catholic and visa versa - if that's not organised terrorism then what is?
That might be 500 years ago, and certain religions such as Christianity have become more civilised in time - just remember they were JUST as barbaric! 
 
SOME muslims are very 'behind' by our modern western standards! And we need to live by those standards and promote our modern values, and keep promoting them! 
 
Can also just say say I'm sat in a cafe writing this.... and at the next table are a western white Scottish woman chatting and laughing opposite a muslim woman in her headscarf - obviously friends, ex-colleges or something - just two woman catching up!...... its such a simple scene.... but very symbolic! 
 
So don't go round saying all islam is evil! Some people have VERY backwards views yes...But Islam is an ancient religion - and there are billions of Muslims in the world - so We'd all be screwed/dead by now if they all truly did hate us and want us dead! 
 
I often see plenty of muslim families at theme parks I visit - they are like us, they love a day out.... the smiles on there faces are the same... remember that! 

Generally I distrust Organised religion full stop - or ones with very fixed ideals and rules and rituals - life's too short for that! I'm quite a spiritual person - but the blinkered belief of some of the those that follow organised religion - just makes my blood run cold! 
 
Remember our history - and that we once burned one another at the stake for being Protestant vs Catholic and visa versa - if that's not organised terrorism then what is?
That might be 500 years ago, and certain religions such as Christianity have become more civilised in time - just remember they were JUST as barbaric! 
 
SOME muslims are very 'behind' by our modern western standards! And we need to live by those standards and promote our modern values, and keep promoting them! 
 
Can also just say say I'm sat in a cafe writing this.... and at the next table are a western white Scottish woman chatting and laughing opposite a muslim woman in her headscarf - obviously friends, ex-colleges or something - just two woman catching up!...... its such a simple scene.... but very symbolic! 
 
So don't go round saying all islam is evil! Some people have VERY backwards views yes...But Islam is an ancient religion - and there are billions of Muslims in the world - so We'd all be screwed/dead by now if they all truly did hate us and want us dead! 
 
I often see plenty of muslim families at theme parks I visit - they are like us, they love a day out.... the smiles on there faces are the same... remember that!