Park Operations

[pluk]

I don't quite understand you reasoning in defending the park so relentlessly Tinie.

All that you've said as to why this happens is not something that is necessary if the park is run properly, rather than a reasonable excuse you are merely describing the result of poor management. If they are carrying out scheduled maintenance during park opening hours then they are not planning things as they should and maintenance are working the wrong hours. Things will break causing downtime and within reason that is fair enough and is going to happen. But to plan to take things out of action at a place with such short daily hours and season as a whole must be wrong.

They can't get the trains up in time? It's not because of the checks that need completing, it's because they are not starting those checks early enough. They think the wheels will de-laminate? They have clearly left it too long since the last change. The staff are incapable of adding or removing trains in a reasonable time? They need better training or the procedure needs improving. etc etc

The best customer service would be for everything to open at capacity on time each morning and only reduce if it becomes apparent it is not needed later on. That should be the aim and would allow a bit of a margin of error when the checks do reveal a problem to get it fixed up.

Making excuses doesn't deal with the problems, it just makes them worse.

[Marc]

The best customer service would be for everything to open at capacity on time each morning and only reduce if it becomes apparent it is not needed later on. That should be the aim and would allow a bit of a margin of error when the checks do reveal a problem to get it fixed up.

Making excuses doesn't deal with the problems, it just makes them worse.

I do see your point, but then I do think they make up for this in other customer service they offer, for instance there was a day The Swarm had issues and was due to be closed all day, park wide announcements informed guests they will be given complementary tickets, and when the part arrived it was quickly fitted and the ride managed to open around 4:30 or so on a 5pm close, they once again did a park wide announcement informing eveyone it had opened, they extended park hours and everyone still got comp tickets, which is imo an example of great customer service.

Regarding the trains, this is kind of what they do though but in reverse, ride opens on a capacity which is reasonable to the parks predicted gate figure, if for what ever reason the ride needs more capacity (higer gate/ ride issues) the second train can be out and open within 10 mins.

I think the real issue here is what people on here think is an acceptable queue on these days, and what thorpe do.

[planenut]

Engineering start before 7a.m. every day, so they're unlikely to start earlier; faults do arise when in use more often than when under maintenance checks (Murphy's law applies here), and after several staff return to Uni. late in the season, training cannot be as thorough.

On site training/guidance should be increased if it exists at all. I thought that was what managers and supervisors were for, but management, who can be identified when carrying "helping hand" grippers? seem to visit rides then disappear quickly.

Satisfaction cannot be guaranteed for all, and those who've had a good day are unlikely to comment, criticism abounds, myself included.

[BigBobJones]

I can see both sides of this. When I worked in a supermarket, there were a number of reasons why we could be out of stock of basic items, some of these things were down to the shop staff, others were out of their control. But at the end of the day if you go in to Tesco's and there is no food on the shelf, the supermarket has failed to deliver.

The same can be said about running on 1 train or a ride shut, to the customer the park has failed to deliver.

It does not matter if staff go back to Uni, its the job of the park to ensure they have enough staff.

If additional training is required to get another train on, then do the training.

If there is a technical/mechanical fault, fix it as soon as possible

If the checks are not complete, then start earlier. Supermarket staff work through out the night to get food on the shelf, so if engineers need to start earlier, then so be it.

You have to remember the customer or guest at the end of the day does not care about why a ride is not working or running on reduced capacity, all they care about is they can not get on their ride or they have to wait longer. This may sound selfish, but this is the society we live in. When people pay so much money to get in, they expect everything to be working.

It has been said that free tickets have been given away, this is great and to be fair I have had lots of fast tracks this year from Alton, Chessington and Thorpe for various reasons.If you do complain and you have a valid reason, they will compensate you. But you have to have a valid reason of course.

Now I may be fully against fast track, but if I have been wronged, then I have no issue in taking some fast track or priority passes as compensation. This tends to happen when you have queued for ages and a ride breaks down or you go to the park and multiple main rides are down. Or the excuse "Adverse weather" or as I like to call it "Rain"

[Bobo91]

Engineering start before 7a.m. every day, so they're unlikely to start earlier; faults do arise when in use more often than when under maintenance checks (Murphy's law applies here), and after several staff return to Uni. late in the season, training cannot be as thorough.

On site training/guidance should be increased if it exists at all. I thought that was what managers and supervisors were for, but management, who can be identified when carrying "helping hand" grippers? seem to visit rides then disappear quickly.

Satisfaction cannot be guaranteed for all, and those who've had a good day are unlikely to comment, criticism abounds, myself included.

All staff will be trained at all times. Consider the fact that if a ride goes wrong people could be killed, I think that the staff will be trained don't you...

[Ricky]

The same can be said about running on 1 train or a ride shut, to the customer the park has failed to deliver.

It does not matter if staff go back to Uni, its the job of the park to ensure they have enough staff.

If additional training is required to get another train on, then do the training.

If there is a technical/mechanical fault, fix it as soon as possible

If the checks are not complete, then start earlier. Supermarket staff work through out the night to get food on the shelf, so if engineers need to start earlier, then so be it.

To me, the park ONLY fail to deliver when the ride is not open, if its on one train they are still delivering a ride experience.

• Staff going back to Uni has nothing to do with training or rides being on reduced capacity.
• Training is very thorough with COSWP (code of safe working practice) being the biggest aspect of of training. The trainee is taken from a visual and audible walk-through of everyday operation. once completing this part of training they must complete a certain amount of 'shadowing' to get the feel of the ride and once this is done (usually a minimum of one hour) they must do their reading which is going through the COSWP again and reading all the procedures in depth. Once completing this they must then go through a risk assessment. I can assure you the training is very thorough and is completed to the highest standards.
• If there is a technical fault with a ride/train then the engineers will go about their routine and complete the task quickly and efficiently
• Engineering department start early in the morning I believe its 6:15 (can't quite remember, maybe earlier than that) and start completing a very long list of checks before they allow any operation of the ride whatsoever. Checks can even start the night before with the late shift engineering team who are there until 11:15pm. There have been many occasions where engineering have worked late into the night sometimes until the early shift engineers start to get rides up and running. I remember back in 2009 when SAW - The Ride first opened the engineers where there with Gerstlauer to route and fix the problems it had on opening day.

A lot of thought and preparation goes into a theme park and countless amount of work has to be done on a daily basis to get rides up and running especially when they can be as complicated as Stealth.

[Tom]

Too tired to make a proper post but basically I've bolded all the stuff that jumps out at me.

To me, the park ONLY fail to deliver when the ride is not open, if its on one train they are still delivering a ride experience.

• Staff going back to Uni has nothing to do with training or rides being on reduced capacity.
• Training is very thorough with COSWP (code of safe working practice) being the biggest aspect of of training. The trainee is taken from a visual and audible walk-through of everyday operation. once completing this part of training they must complete a certain amount of 'shadowing' to get the feel of the ride and once this is done (usually a minimum of one hour) they must do their reading which is going through the COSWP again and reading all the procedures in depth. Once completing this they must then go through a risk assessment. I can assure you the training is very thorough and is completed to the highest standards.
• If there is a technical fault with a ride/train then the engineers will go about their routine and complete the task quickly and efficiently
• Engineering department start early in the morning I believe its 6:15 (can't quite remember, maybe earlier than that) and start completing a very long list of checks before they allow any operation of the ride whatsoever. Checks can even start the night before with the late shift engineering team who are there until 11:15pm. There have been many occasions where engineering have worked late into the night sometimes until the early shift engineers start to get rides up and running. I remember back in 2009 when SAW - The Ride first opened the engineers where there with Gerstlauer to route and fix the problems it had on opening day.

A lot of thought and preparation goes into a theme park and countless amount of work has to be done on a daily basis to get rides up and running especially when they can be as complicated as Stealth.

6:15 is not early. If the department work in shifts then early shift might be 6:00 - 3:00 and late shift 2:00 - 11:00 could be the shift times. Which is what? 9 hours.

If you hype up and advertise something costing millions of pounds for months and months and it is completely ****ed on the opening date then yeah I would expect the park to have it up and running.

[pluk]

To me, the park ONLY fail to deliver when the ride is not open

Thank Christ you are not in charge then, that is an absurd way to look at things. I guess it all comes down to the standards people find acceptable, your standards must be particularly low.

.

A lot of thought and preparation goes into a theme park and countless amount of work has to be done on a daily basis to get rides up and running especially when they can be as complicated as Stealth.

And? Just because they've done something does not make it enough.

Stealth is as simple as peas if you compare it to a lot of the stuff in American parks which is often operated for twice as long each day and for a complete 365 day season. It's all just excuses, if they are preparing to fail each day people should moan about it and anyone that gives a crap about the park shouldn't be defending it.

To nudge this somewhere back towards fastrack again, if people see the park not allowing low queues to exist due to poor operation during the short amount of quiet time on a busy day or at any time on a quiet day, and all the time they are selling fastrack, they will question the motive behind the reduced capacity. I believe it is a money making rouse, if not directly then they are at least not giving themselves any motivation to get things right from the off. Cynical? Maybe, but most visitors don't give the tiniest crap about why there's one train/late opening/a hardly moving queue. They just want to get on the ride.

[Marc]

I think the main issue here is between what enthusiasts expect from visiting the park and what the core audience expect.

I used to go on dead days and would re-ride rides as much as I could all day, they were walk on and it was great, obviously there are now way fewer days like that partly because of the parks popularity has increased and partly because rides are on one train.

Its worth noting on the "off peak" days the park will and do increase capacity if they are of the opinion it needs to be done, and thats probably where our opinions differ with theirs. To us (I speak for my self), on a dead day I dont really want to queue 30 mins for inferno / swarm, to the GP (who queue 2 hour plus for rides on the busier days!) 30 mins is probably perfectly reasonable. The park do listen to feedback and if the feedback was often negative on off-peak days regarding queue times on the coasters I'm pretty confident they would improve this.

Have renamed the topic as this isnt really about fastrack!: )

[Dan9]

Is the issue here about one train on off-peak days generally or just on the last day?

[JJ99]

Don't get me wrong, I have no issues with essential maintenance. However, as someone who tries to pick quiet days so I get the most from a 250 mile round trip with some re rides it is annoying to find almost all coasters on reduced capacity combined with fastrack being sold. Surely fastrack should not be sold when the ride is on reduced capacity, a pipe dream in the world of merlin I know.

Also, I do get the feeling that throughput is reduced by more than 50% when on one train because dispatch times often seem slower without the pressure of another train about to enter the brake run.

[BigBobJones]

It is good to see this topic is generating lots of input from people with different views. If I visit on a bank holiday, weekend or during the school holidays I do expect that the queues will be a lot longer, for me I always avoid these days. Most people are sensible that if they go during the busy times you have to queue longer. This is where for some guests Fast Track with its very expensive price tag and other issues about spoiling the day for the rest of the guests comes in to play. Those people who want to pay twice just to get on a ride quicker believe Fast Track is brilliant.

But if you visit on a Monday or Tuesday when the kids are at school say in early May like I did earlier in the year, you don't expect Colossus, The Swarm, Stealth and Inferno all to be running on one train and queues of 40+ minutes. If people book a day off work, travel hundreds of miles and maybe book a hotel, they want to get everything done in 1 day and really enjoy their day.

Tinie may say that the park has not failed if the ride is open, but if you go to Tescos and there is a 40 min queue at the till and they only have two checkouts open, would Tesco's have failed to serve its customers? Tesco have a one in front policy where they open more tills as demand increases. Thorpe on the other hand and I have witnessed this (and others) will open a ride on 1 train or even worse (on Colossus) at the beginning of the day send out every other train completely empty until the queue builds up, then start sending guests on both trains. Thorpe may deny this, but we filmed the empty train on our mobile phone being sent out multiple times, went to Guest services and complained and we were told )after speaking to the ride operator) that they should not be sending out the empty train.

I fully agree if there is a safety issue, or technical fault, the safety of the guests comes first.

But for me Thorpe don't invest enough time/money in to getting the rides open on time at full capacity as they know if the queue builds up people buy Fasttrack. Why spend money when by doing very little, the guests give you more money?

I am sure if there was a similar 'Thrill Capital' park opened up by a competing company a few miles down the road, Thorpe's operations would be as good at a Florida theme park. I feel Merlin are lazy as if you want big coasters, you don't have a lot of choice as Merlin have the monopoly here. Maybe that is why when you go to Florida you get the excellent service as they are all competing against each other. What is Thorpe competing against apart from its two sister parks?

[Marc]

Tinie may say that the park has not failed if the ride is open, but if you go to Tescos and there is a 40 min queue at the till and they only have two checkouts open, would Tesco's have failed to serve its customers? Tesco have a one in front policy where they open more tills as demand increases. Thorpe on the other hand and I have witnessed this (and others) will open a ride on 1 train or even worse (on Colossus) at the beginning of the day send out every other train completely empty until the queue builds up, then start sending guests on both trains. Thorpe may deny this, but we filmed the empty train on our mobile phone being sent out multiple times, went to Guest services and complained and we were told )after speaking to the ride operator) that they should not be sending out the empty train.

Out of interest how long did the queue get before they started fully loading both trains? This is somthing which happens on Colossus more than the others because when its quiet and there are a load of empty seats the staff have to go down the train and lift up every bar to the very top (even if no one is sitting there) and I guess with the bars being heavy this can be both slow and quite hard un-needed work so sometimes it does make sense for them to close either some rows or entire trains till the ride has a constant flow.

I fully agree if there is a safety issue, or technical fault, the safety of the guests comes first.

Whilst it may not be the case, what you describe above could also be a result of a technical issue if for what ever reason a train had an issue / was just fixed and needed more test runs, they can open the ride with the good train, and have the second one on the track so it gets the testing it needs but dont totally close the ride.

What is Thorpe competing against apart from its two sister parks?

Possibly the biggest issue!

[Fred]

I think the main issue here is between what enthusiasts expect from visiting the park and what the core audience expect.

Err, amazingly everyone would have the same view here. The only one's who don't are people who work at the park (this topic is obvious who does), and people who protect the park because they are used to the status quo.

If you asked a guest if they would like to visit a park, have no queues because the rides on two trains on offpeak days.. or visit and have 40min queues because the rides on one train and they're selling fastrack for it.. We all know, ALL know, what the answer will be.

Ultimately, thorpe has this awful status quo and attitude towards its guests. This is something which should, and needs, to be challenged. Otherwise nothing happens.

For the "long hours" thing. Towers engineers work 6am - 1030pm on the split shift. They managed to have Nemesis on two trains every single day this season (albeit about 3 days of it coming out by 11am due to maintenance). That's one example - coasters are always available for full service, only one's which run on less is when they have dual stations (Air and Oblivion) which can increase and do so. There is no excuse. None.

[Marc]

If you asked a guest if they would like to visit a park, have no queues because the rides on two trains on offpeak days.. or visit and have 40min queues because the rides on one train and they're selling fastrack for it.. We all know, ALL know, what the answer will be.

Obviously, thats not what I was saying, but if you ask a guest if they think a 30/40 min queue is reasonable for the rides, I expect most would say yes.... And anyway if it was to get much longer they would bring the second train out, just really wasnt needed on the last day of season.

I'm not saying they I like one train on rides, obviously like everyone id rather 2, but if the majority of guests who visit are not bothered then thorpe will continue to run rides on 1 train till its busy enough to run 2.

[JoshC.]

but if the majority of guests who visit are not bothered then thorpe will continue to run rides on 1 train till its busy enough to run 2.

I think here you've accidentally highlighted one of the key issues about all of this.

If guests are content with what's happening, then that's fine. In this case, Thorpe (and in general cases, Merlin as well) are seemingly happy as long as their guests 'aren't unhappy'. So if guests think 'Oh, this ride is new this year and it's only got a 40 minute queue, great!' or 'WOW, when I came here last time this was like 2 hours long, now it's only 30 minutes', then guests are not going to be unhappy, and will happily ride with the one train operation. Yet, I don't think there's any doubt that guests would be happier / more impressed if these queues were even less. So, it does almost seem like they're happy to make guests not unhappy, but then that's as far as they stop so they can penny pinch.

It's also worth remembering that a 30 minute queue on a coaster with one train will feel longer than a 30 minute queue with a coaster on two trains, especially if guests have experienced the queues when the coasters are on both trains.

[Benin]

Obviously, thats not what I was saying, but if you ask a guest if they think a 30/40 min queue is reasonable for the rides, I expect most would say yes.... And anyway if it was to get much longer they would bring the second train out, just really wasnt needed on the last day of season.

I'm not saying they I like one train on rides, obviously like everyone id rather 2, but if the majority of guests who visit are not bothered then thorpe will continue to run rides on 1 train till its busy enough to run 2.

Are we asking these people if they would prefer 30 minutes on one train, or a lower queue with two trains? What's the point in comparing off-peak and peak days?

Ask people if they want a 30 minute queue with one train or a 0 minute queue with two trains, and it's obvious what people would prefer...

One train operation is horrid... Just generally is... Hell if Europa can run 4 trains on EuroSat and EuroMir on a dead day (walk on queues) why can't Thorpe run two trains, allow guests an even better day, and let them spend less time in a queue and spend in shops/food outlets...

Oh wait, I know, it's the pushing of Fastrack that every single park seem to do nowadays, but Thorpe are much worse for it, which of course, affects the park operations even worse... I can even attest to the whole "Fastrack was the only reason I had a good day" as I did that this year... So aggravating to see the park operations in the south (this topic could SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO be done for Chessie as well) be so poor...

[Mark9]

People keep chucking around this peak/off peak thing. The parks don't actually do this anymore guys, everyday is the same price for entry. With this in mind, shouldn't the parks and its rides be on full capacity until proved otherwise.

[pluk]

Is the issue here about one train on off-peak days generally or just on the last day?

General slackness, leading to queues, leading to fastrack when not necessary if things were being done properly. I wasn't there on the last day but am told of an empty park with fastrack open and slow single train operation, which I think is how this conversation all started. I have had similar frustrations myself in recent times so can quite believe it.

I think the main issue here is between what enthusiasts expect from visiting the park and what the core audience expect.

I hate the enthusiast v's general public thing. They are to a massive extent the same thing. I think there's some underestimation of the knowledge of the general public and how much they notice what is going on. Knowing my geekiness and willingness to talk about all things theme park many of my non enthusiast friends talk to me about visits to all sorts of parks, for the last couple of years the things have they been increasingly talking moaning about to me have been fastrack and carpark charges, much more so than the positives of new rides. No one expects it to be cheap, but what they have a problem with is when it becomes poor value and expensive to actually get on the rides.

[Deleted Users]

It seems this 1 train debate is now an annual event.

At a park like Thorpe, capacity and fast track are inherently linked. Fast track just gives incentive to elongate queues. Whether Thorpe do or don't is another matter. Personally, I am way more happy to part with my money on photos, etc when I'm having a good day at a park, which includes operations.

Also this money grabbing thing is really boring unless someone has some figures. Guests having bad days (which includes pricing and up-selling) will just mean them being less likely to return and the park losing money which in turn will force the park to up its game. If the park was rolling in profits and I went on a quiet day with long queues due to capacity then I would be annoyed but at the same time, the park could be completely tanking, which just opens up other questions on how the park should respond. We just don't know without figures.

[AstroDan]

I have really enjoyed reading the past few pages of posts, and I have to say - it mostly shows up for me the difference between Thorpe Park and Alton Towers.

I visit TP around 3 - 4 times per year, and Alton Towers far more.

Alton Towers, even on quiet to medium days, ALWAYS open rides on maximum capacity (unless there are technical problems, which is unusual) - and work backwards from there if it's quiet enough.

Even when the ride was WALK ON - Nemesis would have 2 trains running. At no stage whatsoever, aside from Feb Half Term, did I see the ride on one train all season. It would run with next to no queue for several hours on end. It remained on 2 trains until ride close on the last day of the season, when it was completely walk on.

Rita also, if it's very, very quiet (I.e. walk on) - will still run two trains. Only when there are no people to fill both trains, will they close off rows 2-10 on one train, and just use the front row (this keeps front row queue moving). However, they'd not take the train off- just incase it gets busy again.

Air nearly always runs a 2 station, 3 craft service - unless there are technical problems.

The same can be said for Th13teen, which always opens on 3 trains! Only when the ride is totally walk on will it reduce to two trains, and that is very, very rare.

[Tom]

^ Totally agree with all of this. I find Air is a bit hit and miss but everything else is full capacity on quiet days. A recent trip saw 3 trains on Th13teen even though there weren't often enough guests to fill them all!

[Marc]

Its hard to disagree with any of that, whilst ive argued in defence of the park, obviously the way alton do it is the way it should be dont for maximum guest satisfaction and be it down to budgets or staffing unfortunately it dont happen often at thorpe.

I think over the next few years we will see the infrastructure at thorpe catch up abit, with the Crash Pad opening the park will suddenly be a 24 hour operation and I'm confident they can catch up with alton in regards to how things are run, if merlin support them.

[Tom]

Yes I think give it time and the southern parks will be up to a similar standard, as Merlin must be able to see that Alton just works

[alexander]

I rarely go on peak day's and try to go in the quieter period, but if they're running one train on a quiet day and the queue's get big because of M£rlin clutching onto our wallets, why would that make me want to return? The reason I go on days that are quieter is so I get a lot more done, otherwise it just is completely pointless. It would put me off going both periods so then I wouldn't be going at all. If I was a standard guest paying £40, (or £20 with the 2for1s) I would expect an enjoyable experience regardless, it's nice to see the park busy and have a bit of atmosphere, but when the park is encouraging staff to sell fast-track at the entrance of rides with no queue, it completely ruins it and kills a huge aspect of the day for me. I think the GP would share a similar view if they felt they were being ripped off if the park isn't working to it's maximum potential when they're paying extortionate amounts of money to get in.