Ian-S Posted September 23, 2016 Report Share Posted September 23, 2016 I still can't wrap my head around how nobody considered hest would be an issue, has nobody working at Merlin ever heard the saying 'engineer for the worst'? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveJ Posted September 23, 2016 Report Share Posted September 23, 2016 Re: the storyline. This is one of the weirdest things about the ride, as has probably been pointed out before. It's another trope of inexperienced designers being given too much influence. It's quite interesting how bad it is really. I remember quite a few people on here predicted it from a couple of online promo images before the ride even opened - that's how makeshift the story is. Derren Brown is approached about "would you like to make a ride" and he, being the imaginative experienced show writer, insists it is "a ghost train" that is "just fun, not pure horror" and uses his brand of mentalism. He was interviewed about this in an article a few months back. Merlin taking this brief can't possibly create 'just' a really good haunted dark ride and so have to go about it in the usual "psychological" "fully immersive" "world's first" marketing terms. They come up with a bad backstory and lots of brand imagery, instead of creating portfolios of real art direction, core design concepts, visual theme, like a professional studio would. Instead there's a written up storyline that there's a fracking disaster that infects an underground train station, which causes a city to explode and be demon possessed. How to achieve this storyline when it comes to it? Apparently through some torn up queueline posters they get the graphics team to design, a company logo "Sub Core Energy" on screen (because every Merlin ride has to have a fictional organisation "Phalanx", "ACRE", "SQUID", "Ministry of Joy", etc), and then a train passenger character literally sat talking at you for minutes to give the 'backstory'. Is this entertainment? Is it fun or what the public find exciting? No, most people just sit there during these moments thinking the VR is cool - which for the first few minutes for first time users it is, and then goes stale. Few notice or care about this attempt at a story and quite rightly, because it's communicated in a very hazy way that isn't any fun. People are waiting for Derren Brown to do his magic, not have to pay attention to a Wikipedia-style 'backstory' is if they were reading into a piece of ride fan-fiction. The real fun happens when the train crashes and there's some actual drama, some actual visuals and excitement. That's what a good story should provide - the drama. Not sitting down on a seat or standing in a queue being story'd at with logos and words. There should have been much more of this surprise and drama, it's these moments guests latch on to. This is obvious to any experienced attraction designer - except Merlin Magic Making clearly. Yet the worst thing is the designers' attitudes towards this problem. I believe one of the lead creatives actually went around addressing complaints about the bad use of a storyline messaging people they knew on Facebook to say "It's supposed to be like that. It's supposed to make no sense because Derren Brown is messing with your mind." So the ride is patchy and stinted because Derren Brown? That seems like a fan persons excuse you read on an internet forum, but this is the lead creative's actual assertion with the ride. Is this concept any fun? Parts of the ride are better than this - but you could do away with all story and context and it wouldn't effect those fun parts at all, in fact it would enhance it. If there were meant to be more unexplained, surreal and nightmarish experiences "because Derren Brown is messing with your mind", then all the usual Merlin devices to explain this storyline should have been cut, more substance given to the whole attraction, and more should have been left to the imagination. Many abstract films achieve this very well and it takes a lot of workmanship to achieve that kind of "unexplained" atmosphere and make it fun. It's like the difference between Hex V.1 in 2000 when the Chained Oak legend was simply portrayed as a backstory to the "supernatural lightning storm" that possessed the vault, and was told through on screen characters and predictable tropes, without giving riders the drama of the story. However, that time they listened to people's complaints, and the right decision was made to cut all context and just DELIVER the drama, creatively tell the legend with the cinematic preshow and then give the rest the attraction the surprise and atmosphere it needed, without trying to explain everything. JoshuaA, pluk, Jormerod18 and 2 others 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benin Posted September 23, 2016 Report Share Posted September 23, 2016 I'll never understand why they didn't just do a VR ghost train, though probably for something of Derren's, AR would've been a better option, as it really would work with the whole confused ride aspect... Plus not using the Victoriana style theming annoys me... Could literally have done anything with it, but it seems like such a botch, as even the floating train reveal is terribly done... SteveJ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuntman707 Posted September 23, 2016 Report Share Posted September 23, 2016 I was hoping there would have been some AR or synced VR with the staff. Not quite knowing who's real and who's not. That's what I expected when they talked about blurring the lines between fiction and reality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jormerod18 Posted September 23, 2016 Report Share Posted September 23, 2016 Although I don't mind the end product, I was very excited about it being Victorian themed and seeing things such as the dolls which I find much more creepy than the demons actually used. Seeing the shop before going on the ride got me even more excited for the whole Victorian theme and style so the whole modern day tube fracking storyline was a bit of a let down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Han30 Posted September 23, 2016 Report Share Posted September 23, 2016 Regarding the storyline - yeah it is a bit confusing - well it gets confusing at the second VR point - also, I don't know if it is my eyesight but the other day, the second VR bit was really blurry?? One thing I realised (I am a bit slow) is that during the pre-show, at the end when Derren picks up the train and says "I'll see you on the other side" - you don't see him so where is he? Is he a demon I personally enjoy the ride - I've ridden it 3 times now but I wouldn't queue ages to go on it. There is one lad that works on it, I've seen him before as a ride host in previous years and he really gets into his role and is actually a pretty good actor. I do agree that they could have really played on the Victorian theme - but I have to say - those dolls they used in the marketing scared the living poop out of me so I'm kinda glad that they didn't feature yeah 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yeah Posted September 24, 2016 Report Share Posted September 24, 2016 On Friday, September 23, 2016 at 0:22 PM, Archive said: (because every Merlin ride has to have a fictional organisation "Phalanx", "ACRE", "SQUID", "Ministry of Joy", etc) To be fair I quite like the Phalanx and M.O.J stuff, and Squid was created in the flop of a TV film Atlantis is based on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveJ Posted September 25, 2016 Report Share Posted September 25, 2016 Why? They are boring 'brand-able names' relating to nothing thought up by unimaginative people in a boardroom, are they worth your attention? The Sanctuary was a great attraction and you'll notice the Ministry of Joy was pretty much just a parody name in that one, the other characters, shock and drama is what made that attraction fun. Then its popularity got leeched off in the most superficial way, but just using the "ministry of joy" on everything and putting it on the Smiler at the last minute, because some marketing person decided so. Go to most real theme parks around the world and you'll find 'fun' in ways you couldn't pre imagine, that's the point. Go to one of Merlin's "world leading innovative" attractions and you'll be told about a company with an acronym name, lots of TV screens and vinyl signs as "entertainment" instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Posted September 25, 2016 Author Report Share Posted September 25, 2016 30 minutes ago, Archive said: Why? They are boring 'brand-able names' relating to nothing thought up by unimaginative people in a boardroom, are they worth your attention? The Sanctuary was a great attraction and you'll notice the Ministry of Joy was pretty much just a parody name in that one, the other characters, shock and drama is what made that attraction fun. Then its popularity got leeched off in the most superficial way, but just using the "ministry of joy" on everything and putting it on the Smiler at the last minute, because some marketing person decided so. Go to most real theme parks around the world and you'll find 'fun' in ways you couldn't pre imagine, that's the point. Go to one of Merlin's "world leading innovative" attractions and you'll be told about a company with an acronym name, lots of TV screens and vinyl signs as "entertainment" instead. Whilst I fully agree Ghost train etc are not the best rides in the world, it don't make people wrong if they do enjoy them just a differing of opinion! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveJ Posted September 25, 2016 Report Share Posted September 25, 2016 Yes people can enjoy what they like and they're not wrong for liking something. But it doesn't hurt to raise awareness of what real entertainment can do, and by all accounts Merlin's usual style of attraction design is very much a marketing exercise to keep a fandom loyal to their parks, rather than genuine creative entertainment. Not everyone involved with Derren Brown's Ghost Train had these intentions surely, and there are moments of fun, but for real fun it would reward people to look elsewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benin Posted September 25, 2016 Report Share Posted September 25, 2016 To be fair, wasn't Phalanx created as part of the original Nemesis storyline? Heavily featured in the comic I'm sure... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveJ Posted September 25, 2016 Report Share Posted September 25, 2016 Yes, by Tussauds Studios who are/were much the same people in some cases who became a part of Merlin Studios and then Merlin Magic Making, and they always look to Nemesis' 'backstory' as being their best work. When in reality, it was mostly only made to sell the merchandise, even John Wardley has regularly said Nemesis isn't supposed to have a public backstory, just a visual story/theme. So it was amusing how backstory-focussed Sub Terra was, in a deliberate attempt to pat themselves on the back for "creating Nemesis' story" (MMM regularly credit themselves with making Nemesis despite all the context and structure thats since changed within the company) and to try and please enthusiasts who would "get the references". When really - its much more enjoyable to ride Nemesis looking like its a quarry-dwelling alien, than to be told it is with all this Phalanx stuff thrown in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMouse Posted September 27, 2016 Report Share Posted September 27, 2016 So I rode DBGT yesterday. It opened late and seemed to close by about 4pm. I enjoyed it but seem to have thought the same as everyone else! My favourite bit was seeing the Victorian carriage though sadly there seems to be damage to the red entrance door already with a large chip missing and we were rushed around so couldn't take it in properly. The major issues seem to be tech and story. I think bringing a ghost train into the modern by having a real tube train is a brilliant idea but having PS2 graphic monsters took me right out of it. Anyone else hoping for a complete story overhaul? Actual ghosts? Something to make the Victorian carriage actually tie in? The "two lights on a stick" scare was quite clearly the front of a train. Has this been updated? Also I'm curious about the photo attached. There are clearly yellow restraints and glass windows. Anyone know what happened to these? The wrinkly fabric panels look awful. CharlieN and jessica2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattyMoo Posted September 27, 2016 Report Share Posted September 27, 2016 That's a shame if there is damage to the Victorian train already - not very good considering the small amount of time it's been operational. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingNemesis Posted September 27, 2016 Report Share Posted September 27, 2016 26 minutes ago, TMouse said: Also I'm curious about the photo attached. There are clearly yellow restraints and glass windows. Anyone know what happened to these? The wrinkly fabric panels look awful. Short and simply, the technology didn't work with the idea, Due to the way the HTC Vive's work, They perform head tracking (positional and directional) using things called Light houses on the ceiling, (See diagram below) The way they perform the head tracking is by reflecting a beam from the lighthouse, to the Vive and back to the lighthouse allowing precise location tracking (as the vive can do room scaling so you can walk around the virtual world) Unfortunately windows and reflections go hand in hand and heard it was causing some problematic tracking issues causing the headsets to go a little bit... crazy! In regards to the yellow restraints, they just were not needed! Bonus! Han30 and pluk 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt A Posted September 28, 2016 Report Share Posted September 28, 2016 On 9/27/2016 at 10:25 AM, KingNemesis said: In regards to the yellow restraints, they just were not needed! Bonus! Looks more like a tube train without them really! As for the windows, would look a bit odd just seeing white out of them the whole time wouldn't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Posted September 28, 2016 Author Report Share Posted September 28, 2016 The windows are able to mist up / de-mist when needed - that said for most of the time you with your vr on! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshC. Posted September 29, 2016 Report Share Posted September 29, 2016 I don't think it's been mentioned, but lately the bag room has been closed. So you take your bags on with you, and just leave very large items outside with a member of staff. An interesting idea, but it didn't have any impact on my ride yesterday (in terms of throughput or experience), so I guess it's quite a natural thing for people. I hope it works long-term, though it'd be a shame to not see the nicely themed bag room again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshC. Posted September 29, 2016 Report Share Posted September 29, 2016 Couple of things to say after my ride yesterday... -Didn't hear anyone complain of glitchy headsets / low volume of noise. -Good amount of time spent in the warehouse with the Victorian carriage. But it felt like it was missing a grander reveal; maybe it's just because I'd already seen it, but it definitely doesn't seem like they're not making as big a deal out of it as they should. -The live action sequence was executed really well. Good mix of story, tension and fear - loads of people screaming and running away, only to be greeted with 'infected' actors chasing them the other way! -Experienced a very long green mist sequence, though staff on the train did a good job at trying to keep things going. Screaming, banging walls, leg and neck grabbing. Anything to try and stop people getting bored. Better than nothing I guess! I still really enjoy Ghost Train, but I must confess that after a few rides now, I've really begun to hate the second VR portion. Previously I was able to go with it, and the novelty of VR was enough to keep me entertained. But now I'm used to VR, that doesn't do it for me, so the weakness of it really shines through. It's a shame, as whenever I hear people speak about it, the large majority of opinions seem to be how they think it's an 'okay' or 'good' ride, and go on to explain how much they love the pre show, the first VR, the live action sequence, but then don't like the second VR. Some major improvements / starting again with that could really change how well this whole thing is received on the whole! PJ., Cian and pluk 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Project LC Posted September 29, 2016 Report Share Posted September 29, 2016 Ah cost cutting slowly creeping in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Posted September 29, 2016 Author Report Share Posted September 29, 2016 See I'm not sure if it it cost cutting with the amount of staff around in the batch / entrance area - I think it's more because the bag room was madness as people were being batched in, if anything it slowed the process down. I guess time will tell! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benin Posted September 30, 2016 Report Share Posted September 30, 2016 A bag room on a massive dark ride that you can actually take your bags onto (I.e. Not Sub Terra) is always a daft thing... It's a slightly unhealthy obsession of Merlin's to have bag drops on everything when it causes utter chaos by the exit (hey Swarm)... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jessica2 Posted September 30, 2016 Report Share Posted September 30, 2016 3 hours ago, Benin said: A bag room on a massive dark ride that you can actually take your bags onto (I.e. Not Sub Terra) is always a daft thing... It's a slightly unhealthy obsession of Merlin's to have bag drops on everything when it causes utter chaos by the exit (hey Swarm)... although I am very grateful for bag drops, my friend's bag was stolen on Samurai on a fright night several years ago, which really puts me off rides without them (like slammer, samurai, rush, quantum). I end up with an oh so trendy bum bag I use under my coat when there isn't a bag drop. But agree you shouldn't need one on a maze or a stationary/barely moving ride, or even a slow ride. I was actually shocked in Disneyland on space mountain when they told you to just hold onto it instead, people were on it clinging on to their backpacks haha. But slower than that I think there's no problem. Back to Derren Brown, when people say there are 2 sequences of VR, do you take the headset off in-between? Is there any walking around involved? I've avoided spoilers as I'm going on it for the first time next week! Is the queue completely outside, and do you feel the queue times board is accurate in general or does it over/underestimate? Sorry for a million questions, thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Han30 Posted September 30, 2016 Report Share Posted September 30, 2016 Yes there are 2 different VR parts and the bit in between you do walk a little bit (don't want to type too much). Regarding queue time boards, I've only been on DBGT 3 times - first time we were first in, second and third time we queue for about 20 mins less than it stated - but obviously this varies as with every ride - queue boards can't be 100 per cent accurate. Yes the queue is outside but lots of it under shelter, and you have 2 photo points (if they are open) which makes things a bit more interesting (if you're easily pleased like me!) - they have the obligatory shop where you can purchase a bottle of water for a mere £50 aswell . I love listening the the music in the queue - the music is fantastic! Oh lord - I remember going on Space Mountain back in 2000 and was wondering where to put my bag - was shocked I had to take it on and thought I'd lose it but I was squashed in so tight it wasn't going anywhere - still find it odd though - wonder how many people have lost bags/loose change/phones etc on that ride jessica2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jessica2 Posted September 30, 2016 Report Share Posted September 30, 2016 2 hours ago, Han30 said: Yes there are 2 different VR parts and the bit in between you do walk a little bit (don't want to type too much). Regarding queue time boards, I've only been on DBGT 3 times - first time we were first in, second and third time we queue for about 20 mins less than it stated - but obviously this varies as with every ride - queue boards can't be 100 per cent accurate. Yes the queue is outside but lots of it under shelter, and you have 2 photo points (if they are open) which makes things a bit more interesting (if you're easily pleased like me!) - they have the obligatory shop where you can purchase a bottle of water for a mere £50 aswell . I love listening the the music in the queue - the music is fantastic! Oh lord - I remember going on Space Mountain back in 2000 and was wondering where to put my bag - was shocked I had to take it on and thought I'd lose it but I was squashed in so tight it wasn't going anywhere - still find it odd though - wonder how many people have lost bags/loose change/phones etc on that ride yeah the queue boards can be a tad unreliable! Ooh first in good job, I think that will be my plan if it is working, head there first or saw! Yay photo points I love good themed music so that sounds great. Doesn't saw have a similar queue line shop, so ridiculous, they know people are bored/desperate so will end up buying something... Reason I asked about the queue is that sometimes you can look at the queue and know how long it'll be (like for saw/stealth/the swarm/anything outside) so I didn't want to look and think the queue wasn't bad but then realise there was a huge bit round the corner/inside (which was what we did in Disneyland on crush's coaster, thought that was it then bam nowhere near the front haha). Its dark in space mountain so I suppose you don't see stuff dropping down, but my friend lost her first ever phone on Colossus back when that opened haha and you could see it in the net thing Will see if bag drop is working on derren brown when I go but sounds unnecessary. Han30 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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