Cal Posted August 6, 2015 Report Share Posted August 6, 2015 They still do, in the control room next to the world record and various images of Colossus on each of its inversions, there is a leaderboard and the record is like 1600 or 1800 if I remember and read it rightly.... I doubt Colossus' highest throughput is over 1200... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pognoi Posted August 6, 2015 Report Share Posted August 6, 2015 You have therefore just made your own arguement invalid Matt, as the park already enforces throughput recordings. Also, the operators can and are encouraged to change the queue time to represent what it actually is. Whether or not these are strictly informed to is down to the operator. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pluk Posted August 6, 2015 Report Share Posted August 6, 2015 With a real queue (without RnR), it becomes a lot more complicated. Whilst they could do the simple thing of just calculating the number of people in the queue and seeing how that matches to the throughput, they can't control things like small breakdowns, the number of Ride Access Pass users and so forth. There's also the case of the number of people joining a queue at a specific time, which will vary all the time (depending on time of day, length of queue already, and so forth) - so it's another thing they can't predict or calculate accurately. How can R&R in any way remove these variables? Breakdowns, pass use, fastrack all continue. With a 30 minute return window the number of guests will fluctuate as well, although maybe not quite so dramatically. Exactly why the standby queue will always be required and why the original concept was a non-starter. The numbers for a real queue are the same, with a very simple count in and count out of the queue line with a turn-style or beam breaker, a constantly updating and very accurate expected wait time could be displayed. I quite agree that the other bolt-ons operating outside of the R&R system are what causes most of the failures. They need ditch fastrack (never going to happen, but I can dream!), or more realistically build it into R&R so the system so there is proper control over what it is trying to manage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pognoi Posted August 6, 2015 Report Share Posted August 6, 2015 I've... never thought of that. That's pretty cool actually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pluk Posted August 6, 2015 Report Share Posted August 6, 2015 I still don't see why no one has got a perfect estimated queue time system yet - in theory it is quite easy to calculate. You just have two turnstyles, one as you enter the queue, and one just before boarding. You can then work out the average throughput per minute, and divide the number of people in the queue by that number. The method Thorpe uses currently is proven to be vastly inaccurate, and the way Disney does it still provides inaccurate wait times because it tells you what the wait time was when the person with the card joined the queue, not what the actual current length is. That's exactly what I was referring to. It was a system in use in UK parks in the mid 90s, started with turnstiles, then developed into using beam breakers which I imagine are less accurate but also less intrusive, but at some point fell out of use and was replaced with todays poor guesswork. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt10 Posted August 7, 2015 Report Share Posted August 7, 2015 It probably went down to maintainance and cost to run it.... Just another thing that has been scrapped over the years and has never properly been replaced.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobF Posted August 7, 2015 Report Share Posted August 7, 2015 Colossus struggles to get 1000ph thats partly due to the ride system blocks out if the next train is sent before the other has started to move forwards out of the brakes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshC. Posted August 7, 2015 Report Share Posted August 7, 2015 How can R&R in any way remove these variables? Breakdowns, pass use, fastrack all continue. With a 30 minute return window the number of guests will fluctuate as well, although maybe not quite so dramatically. Exactly why the standby queue will always be required and why the original concept was a non-starter. The numbers for a real queue are the same, with a very simple count in and count out of the queue line with a turn-style or beam breaker, a constantly updating and very accurate expected wait time could be displayed. I quite agree that the other bolt-ons operating outside of the R&R system are what causes most of the failures. They need ditch fastrack (never going to happen, but I can dream!), or more realistically build it into R&R so the system so there is proper control over what it is trying to manage. The virtual wait removes those variables since it is just a 'pure' queue - the numbers won't incorporate things like Fastrack, pass use, etc. The theory would be that you would get on more or less straight away (which was actually the case during the very first trial I did in 2013...except on one go when the system mucked up the numbers completely), but the 'up to 15 minute' thing allows for leeway I guess, in case of unexpected numbers of people using Fastrack / access passes or breakdowns and the like - it's almost like a backup. I guess it's wrong of me to say RnR removes the variables - it more just makes them less of a worry. To be honest, I'm not sure I'm explaining this very well, which could well be why what I'm saying isn't making as much sense as I'd like it to! One thing I think we do agree on though is that RnR would be better used as a Fastrack replacement than a real queue replacement. It seems like a better and simpler idea to work on! I still don't see why no one has got a perfect estimated queue time system yet - in theory it is quite easy to calculate. You just have two turnstyles, one as you enter the queue, and one just before boarding. You can then work out the average throughput per minute, and divide the number of people in the queue by that number. The method Thorpe uses currently is proven to be vastly inaccurate, and the way Disney does it still provides inaccurate wait times because it tells you what the wait time was when the person with the card joined the queue, not what the actual current length is. Whilst in theory this is a fabulous idea, I don't think it works in practice. Calculating the average number of people leaving the queue (ie: going on the ride) is fine, but you need to be wary of the average rate of people entering the queue also. Because if the rate of people entering the queue is more than the rate of people leaving the queue, the idea you describe is inaccurate as it underestimates the queue length. The trouble is that working out the average rate of people entering the queue is a lot more difficult, since it depends on so many things (current queue time, time of day being major ones, but even other things like location of ride, how long its been open, etc could feasibly be a factor). I'm sure if a park was dedicated enough to giving very accurate queue times, they could collect data over a long period of time and find out the necessary trends to be able to get a truly perfect estimation system - but for the effort, its not worth it really; even though it does sound really interesting to me.. That's why I think the best system - in terms of practicality and good estimations - is to just work out times from experiencing them, see where a certain queue time is in the real queue, and then just add a little bit extra to take into account any small problems that may occur. Zach 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TPJames Posted August 7, 2015 Report Share Posted August 7, 2015 Turnstiles to note the amount of people in the queueline and therefore caclulate a queuetime is the perfect system for a theme park like thorpe park to incorporate, as it can provide an accurate queue time by a simple calculation and therefore it is easy to track the amount of people in the queue at any one time and speedily update the board to an accurate queue time. Unfortunately, the problem arises when you get some hooligans who spin the turnstiles as many times as they can and mess up the system entirely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshC. Posted August 7, 2015 Report Share Posted August 7, 2015 The system you describe Zach is fine working out a queue time at a snapshot in time. As you say, if you've got x number of people in the queue and you're getting y people through per minute, the queue length is x/y minutes. The trouble is, queues aren't like that, you've always got people constantly entering the queue as well as leaving it. If you don't have a way of predicting the number of people entering the queue, you can't get an accurate estimation of the queue time for the people who are thinking about joining the queue. To use some numbers... Say we take your numbers - 300 people in a queue, with an average of 10 people leaving the queue per minute. You advertise a 30 minute queue. But say, on average, 20 people enter the queue per minute. In a 5 minute period, 50 people have left the queue, but 100 people have joined it - there's now 350 people in the queue, and (assuming the throughput is the same), there's now a 35 minute minute queue. The last people to have joined that queue would have expected a 30 minute queue, but have now got a 35 minute queue. Okay, it's only 5 minutes, but the exact same problem would arise on a larger scale. It's also worth noting the same 'problem' arises if less people enter the queue than who leave it. This is the trouble, unless you can predict the number of people entering the queue, you can't give a truly accurate queue time. You can use it to make a rough estimate, and maybe then add a bit extra to that time just in case, but then you get complaints that the queues aren't accurate enough / parks are trying to sell Fastrack. There's also a problem of how often do you update it? If you update it too often, you risk confusing or even frustrating guests. Don't update it often enough and you get inaccuracies. It's a difficult game to play. This is the ingenious thing about RnR. RnR eliminates the need to predict how many guests are going to enter the virtual queue. The virtual queue tells you exactly how long you need to wait, based on the throughput and the number of people ahead of you - it's a snapshot of the queue line. And so the system you describe actually is the perfect theory for why RnR should work and gives more accurate queue times! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pluk Posted August 7, 2015 Report Share Posted August 7, 2015 I think you are over thinking it Josh, the system can and does work. It doesn't matter about any prediction or future influx of guests, all that matters is what's in there the moment the guest enters. That snapshot is what you want! That can be updated real time so outside of any future unforeseeable breakdown (which will always be the case with any system) the queue time can be pretty accurate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitchada04 Posted August 7, 2015 Report Share Posted August 7, 2015 You do have to ask yourself why no park uses such a system though if it's that simple and could be that reliable. It'd surely be any parks dream to not have to constantly monitor and update queue times knowing a system can do it, so why isn't a system in use? The benefits can't be that large compared to the negatives of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt10 Posted August 8, 2015 Report Share Posted August 8, 2015 If your complaining about It changing in the queue, you could implement the signs like the ones on stealth that say the average wait time for this point, and you could just use the same method and make them electric to create a time from that point, but that really isn't necessary... And mist parks probably haven't done it due to money, not being able to work out the finer details of implementing it or there is a major upkeep issue and if the system messes up, they may not have a back up.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benin Posted August 8, 2015 Report Share Posted August 8, 2015 Never argue with a maths student on numbers... JoshC. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Posted August 8, 2015 Report Share Posted August 8, 2015 They did trial something on Stealth which counted people entering the queue and then leaving at the exit, I guess this would give them a real time throughput and work out a queue length but the equipment is long gone so I assume it didn't work too well. They are not usually that far off with queue times, they have a member of staff walking round updating them. Imo it's always better to slightly over estimate the queue length too... If stealths queue States 30 minutes but you get on in 20 your happy, if it says 30 but it takes longer people are much more likely to complain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TPJames Posted August 8, 2015 Report Share Posted August 8, 2015 They are not usually that far off with queue times Since when? Every time I go to thorpe the majority of the queue times are at least 20-30mins off, whether that be 30 mins longer or 30 mins shorter they are practically always inaccurate. It is rare to find a queue time which is even roughly accurate at thorpe park. Chessington's boards always seem to be inaccurate too, but that seems to be because they never update them there. What I don't understand is how on my trips to both Alton Towers and Europa Park, queue times were always accurate to a degree of about 5-10mins max and yet somehow thorpe park doesn't manage to get queue times nearly accurate at all. It's a problem which has been around for ages and desperately needs sorting, I think their operations team need to be given a lesson from other parks on how to note accurate queue times or an alternative system should be used to provide the most accurate queue time possible. pluk and Cal 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshC. Posted August 8, 2015 Report Share Posted August 8, 2015 I think you are over thinking it Josh, the system can and does work. It doesn't matter about any prediction or future influx of guests, all that matters is what's in there the moment the guest enters. That snapshot is what you want! That can be updated real time so outside of any future unforeseeable breakdown (which will always be the case with any system) the queue time can be pretty accurate. It is a possibility I'm over-thinking it! However, I'm almost certain that, from a purely theoretical view, the idea being described does over-simplify the matter! The idea of counting the number of people in a queue and using a real time throughput to work out the queue length is good for people in a real queue at that current time, but it's less good for giving pretty decent estimations for people outside that queue (which is what you want from queue time numbers, surely?). The same idea works perfectly for a virtual queue however, since it knows exactly how long you've got to wait. --- Also, on a completely different note (and maybe a note not really suitable for this thread, but couldn't find a more appropriate one)... Please fix the screen Thorpe! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Allgood Posted August 9, 2015 Report Share Posted August 9, 2015 It is a possibility I'm over-thinking it! However, I'm almost certain that, from a purely theoretical view, the idea being described does over-simplify the matter! The idea of counting the number of people in a queue and using a real time throughput to work out the queue length is good for people in a real queue at that current time, but it's less good for giving pretty decent estimations for people outside that queue (which is what you want from queue time numbers, surely?). The same idea works perfectly for a virtual queue however, since it knows exactly how long you've got to wait. --- Also, on a completely different note (and maybe a note not really suitable for this thread, but couldn't find a more appropriate one)... Please fix the screen Thorpe! Been broken for a while now would of thought the contract for the screen would cover them fixing it when panels stop working on the screen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marhelorpe Posted August 11, 2015 Report Share Posted August 11, 2015 Don't know if there's a genuine fault with both spare trains or not, but right now, Stealth is currently running on one train and has done since this morning. To add to that, (I'm not joking) the Fastrack queue has almost reached the entrance to the ride, past the 15 minute wait sign for the main queue. As a result, I'm now currently standing in a queue that whilst advertised as 50 minutes has now been a 90 minute queue instead and have only just made it to the station platform. Rarely do I get this annoyed by Thorpe's operations, but this is just ridiculous. A Fastrack queue literally half the length of the main queue with a one train operation whilst every other coaster except Colossus is on two trains? This is stupid. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattyMoo Posted August 11, 2015 Report Share Posted August 11, 2015 Go and complain about it and they'll give you a Fasttrack to add to the problem! Marhelorpe 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Han30 Posted August 11, 2015 Report Share Posted August 11, 2015 That's a long ol' queue - I don't envy you and do understand how frustrating it must be. As for the screen - all I focus on now is that flippin' black square! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattgwise Posted August 11, 2015 Report Share Posted August 11, 2015 Sounds like a repeat of last Wednesday.Waited an hour and fifteen minutes when I had joined an advertised 40 mins queue. I did complain as Colossus and Swarm were similar stories (not as bad as Stealth's) and was offered "return for £10 vouchers" and 2 priority passes each. Crazy, when part of the complaint was excessive fastrack on one train operation! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coaster Posted August 12, 2015 Report Share Posted August 12, 2015 Don't know if there's a genuine fault with both spare trains or not, but right now, Stealth is currently running on one train and has done since this morning. To add to that, (I'm not joking) the Fastrack queue has almost reached the entrance to the ride, past the 15 minute wait sign for the main queue. As a result, I'm now currently standing in a queue that whilst advertised as 50 minutes has now been a 90 minute queue instead and have only just made it to the station platform. Rarely do I get this annoyed by Thorpe's operations, but this is just ridiculous. A Fastrack queue literally half the length of the main queue with a one train operation whilst every other coaster except Colossus is on two trains? This is stupid. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk What an awful way to treat guests. If a ride is running one train then Fastrack should not be sold at all, let alone mass oversold to use one train operation as a way of selling more.Merlin are in a bad position at the moment and they need to be encouraging guests to come back, leaving them standing in slow moving queues due to one train running whilst watching paid queue jumpers go on first is not going to give people a reason to come back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pluk Posted August 12, 2015 Report Share Posted August 12, 2015 Don't know if there's a genuine fault with both spare trains or not, but right now, Stealth is currently running on one train and has done since this morning. To add to that, (I'm not joking) the Fastrack queue has almost reached the entrance to the ride, past the 15 minute wait sign for the main queue. As a result, I'm now currently standing in a queue that whilst advertised as 50 minutes has now been a 90 minute queue instead and have only just made it to the station platform. Rarely do I get this annoyed by Thorpe's operations, but this is just ridiculous. A Fastrack queue literally half the length of the main queue with a one train operation whilst every other coaster except Colossus is on two trains? This is stupid. This is what I'm talking about. Shoddy beyond words and all too frequent when a ride isn't operating at 100%. Any fool can run a place where nothing goes wrong, it's how they react to a change in circumstance that is the measure of their abilities, and they fail. An incident like that is more than enough to completely taint a guests day at the park and their likelihood of returning and telling others it's a good place to go. All for a combination of wanting the quick fastrack buck and general incompetence. It basically costs nothing to resolve this issue, just some effective management. If they can't foresee and manage a simple thing like this what hope have they got of getting R&R in any way reliable? Go back and get the basics right first, then give your fancy new system a go. Ian-S, Marhelorpe and Coaster 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt10 Posted August 15, 2015 Report Share Posted August 15, 2015 Stealth is back on two trains, train 1 and train 3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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